Nothing but bots play poker in this game! And your blackjack has changed again. Sucks bad!

[The Gamer ™]

And your RNG table does not work for blackjack. After the last update blackjack has turned to crap. 100% Dealer wins most of the time . 7 time in a row I have seen the dealer get 21 . Bull crap! FIX YOUR GAME ! Or I be getting a refund on everything ! Report you to my card a fraud!
Fix your scamming game. What no come back? I will wait.

[Mr Magoo]

yep

[Laura_GOP]

Howdy The Gamer ™, GOP3's RNG certification has recently been renewed, to continue to ensure fair play for all. You can review the most recent certification at the following link. https://www.governorofpoker.com/support/?s=updates-and-announcements&f=rng-certification

On the other hand, GOP3 assures you that we do not use bots in the game (except for the tutorial when you start playing) if you detect any behavior that makes you suspicious within the game, you can report it by sending an email to [e-mail] they will review that reported situation and take the appropriate measures to ensure a pleasant gaming experience for everyone.

[The Gamer ™]

The RNG table will not work for blackjack with 3 player you know this! why are you saying other wise. STOP WITH THE LIE! And yes there are bot in the game , I have screen shot of them. Email you doesn't do anything . Your support is worthless!

[The Gamer ™]

It only work for poker tables ! If you have it working right and it up to date.

[ARingMaker]

Laura_GOP님이 먼저 게시:

On the other hand, GOP3 assures you that we do not use bots in the game (except for the tutorial when you start playing) if you detect any behavior that makes you suspicious within the game, you can report it by sending an email to [e-mail] they will review that reported situation and take the appropriate measures to ensure a pleasant gaming experience for everyone.

reported for spam... if you choose to keep on posting this proven lie. I am well within my rights to post a correction. it's not a forum violation unlike you spamming the forum repeatedly with this lie.

there is no truth to your post whatsoever. The two main Gop3 Developer Made Bots threads that reported and more than proved that there are hundreds if not over a thousand GOP3 developer made pusher bots in game proves that this is a lie that you like to copy and paste spam post for the new, naive and gullible.

what was done? how did you and your team respond? are all of those GOP3 pusher bots still in game that you repeatedly claimed are not yours.? yep... and your team added hundreds more since then too.

I have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that GOP3 Developers have placed hundreds, if not over a thousand, pusher bots in game that you falsely claim are not yours.

Those threads also proved that reporting any suspicious behaviour within the game to support does nothing but tip off you and your team to make some changes to your pusher bots "tells" in game because that's is all you and your team did after i posted them. oh... and placing hundreds more in game while stalling, denying, lying about it in this forum. oh... and you gave out unjustified forum warnings and bans to the few people smart and brave enough to expose GOP3's dishonest business practices.

again... reported for spam. I would give repeated factual posts a pass... but your habitual lies and BS posts... no way.

for all the times you have copied and pasted that reply... you want it to look like your team cares about cheating but after many years of requests by committed players CHEATING is still not a report option. proof of your priorities. I outed chip dumping leader board cheaters years ago as it was happening for a few weeks with real time posts and screenshots and your team did nothing. again proof of your priorities.

you don't care about cheating... only about people logging on regularly. that is how we know that this is a data mining app and not an attempt to create a legit poker site with integrity.

GOP3 is more than likely an Algemene Inlichtingen- en Veiligheidsdienst operation than some game developers trying to make some money. GOP3 has clearly shown the integrity of a government agency and not that of a small business just trying to make it.

[The Gamer ™]

Good read ! Hello all,

First, I'll explain why I am making this thread. After doing some research on Bovada and their RNG setup, I was somewhat concerned. I detail those concerns in the rest of the thread.

About me: I am a software and web developer/marketing consultant. I have a detailed background in development languages including C#, C++, Delphi and Objective C. I code on the web also, in PHP mostly, but have built on Rails and some other platforms.

I also have a detailed education from college in abstract math, recursive formulas, the basics of RNGs and pRNGs, as well as statistical analysis models.

Now, onto what I've found that sparked the creation of this thread. This is an extremely long post, I'll leave the cliffs at top.

Cliffs: Found some concerning information regarding the RNG that Bovada uses, the companies that is associates with and discrepancies in the way they are doing business. This has made me question the legitimacy of their website and has sparked my interest in doing an independent analysis of their RNG's validity for poker based off of true results and hand histories supplied by players of the site.

If you are interested in submitting hands to me for the analysis process, PM me on the forum or reply to the thread.

---------------------------------------------------------

Bovada's RNG was audited by iTech Labs.

Here is the certificate from iTech Labs for their RNG audit for anybody interested (which from what I can gather apparently uses the same RNG for both poker and casino games, which is concerning in and of itself):

http://www.itechlabsglobal.com/certi...v_30012015.pdf

I will come back to this shortly, it is relevant.


The RNG itself comes from the company Real Time Gaming (RTG). Here is a page on Bovada's website that states this:

https://casino.bovada.lv/guide/rtg


Quoted from the page on Bovada's website:

Quote:
Overview of RTG – Controversies

This casino software house has three different outstanding controversies. First there was a question over a player who won more than a million playing a now deleted game called Caribbean 21. Payment was denied amid claims that this individual was a software bot (automatically playing this game). This happened back in 2004, and the outcome of the settlement was never published leaving questions to be asked ever since.

RTG’s stance on the US anti-gambling rules is that this it outside of their responsibility. They say that they do not police the people who license their software and that it is up to individual companies to make sure they are legal in the countries that they accept players from. This works up to a point, though the hands-off approach does raise big questions about who would be able to help in the event of a serious dispute between a player and an individual casino.

Finally, this software is known to be very configurable in terms of how big to make the house edge. Since this is difficult to spot for players (at least in the short-term), there are obvious questions on the fairness of games and the fact that a rogue casino could take an edge big enough to put players at a serious disadvantage.
Let's break this down.

First is the concern of the Caribbean 21 player they mention who had his money confiscated because of a discrepancy in how he won it. This in and of itself is not necessarily concerning, but it's obvious this player found a flaw or edge the site didn't like. Not good for a company that supposedly has bulletproof RNGs.

My second concern is this quote:

Quote:
RTG’s stance on the US anti-gambling rules is that this it outside of their responsibility.
Any company that provides legitimate gambling software or RNG/pRNG services shouldn't have to be sniping customers from the US market in order to sustain their brand or even explicitly state this fact. Perhaps that is their business model, but blatantly disregarding the US laws and then stating it outwardly or allowing their customers (poker, casino sites) to state that they will practically look the other way when their RNG is used illegally is also somewhat concerning and hurts their credibility, at least in my opinion.

The third concern is the final paragraph:

Quote:
Finally, this software is known to be very configurable in terms of how big to make the house edge. Since this is difficult to spot for players...
Granted, house banked games such as casino games have an inherent edge and in the long run, are unbeatable. However, the fact that they have a configurable RNG, that could, for instance, increase their edge in "down" months" is also concerning and brings into question the consistency of things going on at Bovada. Moreover, it's the same RNG used for poker. In my opinion, these two should be separate.

Now, that's all innocent enough I guess, but may raise concern for some people. Let's go back to the RNG certificates that I located though... You can see their newest audit report at the top of the thread from iTech Labs, but here's another link to it:

http://www.itechlabsglobal.com/certi...v_30012015.pdf

Now... here is the link on the Kahnawake Gaming Commission's website that lists a certificate, grants Bovada the right to "carry on interactive gaming and gaming related activities" from the Mohawk Territory:

https://certificates.gamingcommissio...5-f0d5e594dc9e

Notice anything? Only listed is the RTP certificate, or the return to play certificate, which certifies a certain level of return to the players.

This "Certificate of Good Standing" is good until July 31, 2020, and was issued August 1, 2005. There is no RNG certificate listed on their "Certificate of Good Standing" which certainly raises some questions for me.

Was their RNG audit never actually submitted to the KGC?

I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they did not submit said RNG certificate to the KGC, however, this is surely a requirement (? maybe) and something KGC should be concerned of.

Couple this with the fact that there was an intense lack of oversight from the KGC concerning Full Tilt and PokerStars which sparked everything leading up to and after Black Friday, I'm not sure how much we can trust their word or ability to make good business decisions with their proprietors.

This also means that their RTP certificate from the KGC has not been re-issued since post-Black Friday, or post changes to their organizational restructuring (Bodog to Bovada). Certainly when they change from Bodog to Bovada, this should be re-issued. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not an online poker regulatory agency, so I don't know the ins and outs, but logic tells me this is so.

I then was able to locate the previous RNG test that they had done, which was completed by a company called Gaming Associates. Gaming Associates are also based out of Australia/UK, iTech Labs is based out of Australia/UK/Italy/Spain. Here is a link to that:

http://www.gamingassociates.com/cert...KGC%20v1.1.pdf

Now, if this "Certificate of Evaluation" was completed and delivered 10-26-2011, why is it not listed on the KGC's "Certificate of Good Standing" under their RNG certificate? Especially since it was most definitely done after the certificate was issued. Furthermore, if this one is outdated, why is the new iTech Labs certificate not listed?

Furthermore, on the KGC's website:

https://www.gamingcommission.ca/agents.htm

You see both iTech Labs and Gaming Associates listed. They are listed along with two other auditing agencies that, for today's tech and website standards, have sub-par websites for companies that must make hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Bovada rebranded themselves from Bodog on December 14, 2011. This is roughly two months after their first evaluation was done by Gaming Associates. Interesting and perhaps relevant? I'm not sure. I can't find any previous RNG audits, so I'm assuming that prior to 2011, only their return to player report had been submitted to the KGC.

After researching a little more on iTech Lab's website, I found this quote:

Quote:
Recommended algorithms
We always encourage the use of well known public domain RNG algorithms. A non-exclusive list of such algorithms is given below:

Mersenne Twister by Matsumoto and Nishimura (MT19937).
RANLUX by Luscher.
L'Ecuyer's Combined Multiple Recursive Generator.
L'Ecuyer's Tausworthe generator.
Ziff's Implementation of the gfsr4 generator.
This is on this page: http://www.itechlabs.com.au/sidebar-...certification/

Now, the line I'm interested in is: "Mersenne Twister".

After some more searching for the terms Mersenne Twister, as well as Bovada, I came upon some Reddit threads that even I would label as conspiracy theorists.

However, I did find some good information that I've read in multiple places now on the internet from people that have emailed Bovada and asked them. Unfortunately, those emails have been redacted from a Reddit post I found previously. I plan on emailing them to get the information verified, but I found many posts on forums and sites referring to the Mersenne Twister as the RNG that they use.

Here's the most relevant statement I could find from someone, that was corroborated on other websites and forums from people who have contacted Bovada:

https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comme...bovada/cdeh9qe

Quote:
All tin-foil-hatness aside... Bovada uses a pseudorandom number generator called a Mersenne Prime Twister for their RNG; and to my knowledge they do not have a secondary stochastic source like pokerstars did (I believe stars used thermal noise from an infrared camera as well as the PRNG).
With my background in statistical analysis, I know that an pRNG needs some sort of secondary source, whether it be thermal noise or another reseeding method to keep it truly random and unpredictable.

I decided to research this and found this StackOverflow (tech forum/community) post that was asking about RNG's and their validity in certain applications.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4...aming-industry

Of particlar concern are three posts on this page. One from Dan Dyer which is the second most upvoted post, and two replies to posts on the page. Quoting his post:

Quote:
Most stock RNG implementations (e.g. Mersenne Twister) do not have sufficient degrees of freedom to be able to generate every possible shuffle of a 52-card deck from a given initial state (this is something I tried to explain in a previous blog post).
This, most definitely, is concerning. That means that all possible deck outcomes are not necessarily available, and as such, the odds are completely flipped on their heads for poker players and figuring odds, because some runouts/flops/turns/rivers/hand combos preflop are not available to them. In other words, in cases where a certain hand such as 89s will flop a flush X% of the time, a hand such as AKs should also flop a flush X% of the time.

With this flaw, these conditions do not necessarily hold true, but there is no way to tell what the odds actually are without a statistical model. That being said, if it is true that hand frequencies are being changed by a flawed RNG, the entire game theory argument goes out the window because we're no longer playing a random game of poker, we're playing a guessing game to the internal state of the RNG.

There is also a reply from "Tall Jeff" on the most upvoted reply to this that reads:

Quote:
How disappointing to see a highly up voted answer recommend Mersenne Twister. Mersenne Twister is NOT SUITABLE for this application. It is not cryptographically secure: given some of its outputs, you can predict future outputs. That's a serious problem for a gambling machine. Also, the claims about "no direct visibility" are baloney: they are witchcraft with no solid technical basis underlying them. Just because you have transformed the output of a non-secure PRNG somehow, does not necessarily make it secure. I hope no one will follow the advice in this answer.
Lastly, a reply from "JBently" includes this final sentence, which I already knew to be true and from other research have validated as fact.

Quote:
The real problem with MT (Mersenne Twister) is that given a relative small sample of outputs you can calculate the internal state.
Basically, with a few hands and proper seeding information, someone could crack Bovada's RNG and set themselves on easy street. Any of us? Maybe not without some help from a highly skilled hacker, but someone within Bovada's internal structure? Definitely.

So let's recap.

They use an RNG with no secondary source, from a company that created an RNG that was "beatable" at one point in a casino game (which supposedly has a house edge), have switched companies for their certifications, do not have a Poker RNG listed on the KGC profile, and furthermore, admittedly use a type of RNG that theoretically is able to be sequenced, and thus, cracked, given the right information.

All it would take is one crooked Bovada developer or employee that had access to their RNG code in order to make this possible. He could easily sequence the RNG, sync a machine to the internal server state or pRNG state, and thus, predict all the cards dealt.

Even if their decks are shuffling randomly, a computer could easily select the time at which an action needs to take place in order to seed the RNG in such a way that they get a desired outcome. Furthermore, with a synced machine and their two starting cards, they can pretty easily deduce the starting cards of other players at the table once the flop is seen.

So, here I am, on here, asking for the community's help.

The anonymous tables are concerning by themselves because of the ability to cheat or collude, but all of this that I've found brings into question the legitimacy of their website even more.

I have more research, I have more information, but this is basically what everybody needs to know.

So, what do I plan to do?

I plan to use analysis software, perhaps poker software, but maybe some proprietary 3rd party software, or maybe even both, to analyze the expected outcomes vs actual outcomes, hand frequencies, as well as board frequencies for a very large number of hands. I may even write software to do this myself if I need to.

I would like to collect 25 million hands, but I understand that is a questionable number. I think 25 million hands would give a reasonable idea of trends, however, an ideal situation would include closer to a billion. I myself have a good half a million from the website, but I need as many as I can get.

If you are interested in assisting, PM me or reply here. I will get in touch with you and you can deliver the hand histories to me by the easiest method available to you.

Hopefully this is all wasted time and I find absolutely nothing, but something tells me that isn't the case here.

Thanks, and good luck at the tables.

[The Gamer ™]

How can we check if RNGs are Fair?
There are special outsourcing companies which license casinos. They test casino equipment, including RNGs. Game operators who use the algorithm of pseudo-random numbers claim that saving the reputation and players’ trust is important for them, therefore it is unprofitable to cheat. The second argument in favor of such casinos is that the combination of numbers generated by the algorithm is practically impossible to anticipate.

Thousand-digit numbers or, for example, Pi, consisting of 5 trillion digits after the comma, are used as the starting point of the algorithm and the final number is generated by means of difficult sequences of mathematical actions. The algorithm generates a combination before the player presses the “Start” button and the reels or the roulette wheel start to move.

Checking the working principle of an RNG is possible only after examining an online casino’s server — this is what the companies that license casinos to do. It is clear to everybody that this scheme of checking online casinos cannot be considered completely reliable.

[The Gamer ™]

Essentially, RNG technology is a technological key that makes online gambling possible. Assuming they’re not rigged

[The Gamer ™]

Cannot be considered completely reliable.

[The Gamer ™]

So you have a new 2023 RNG? point me to the link show this!
If so I loved you to post a link showing me the new 2023 RNG.

[The Gamer ™]

Is it possible to crack RNG?
As you can see, it is completely possible to hack an RNG that's based on a computer program like the ones used in casinos and online games. That's not to say, however, that it is easy. These companies spend a pretty penny to make sure that their games are secure with extensive protocols installed. But it can be done!

[The Gamer ™]

Is true RNG possible?
You can't program a computer to produce true randomness—wherein no element has any consistent, rule-based relationship to any other element—because then it wouldn't be random.

[The Gamer ™]

There is no universal test or battery of tests that can guarantee, when passed, that a given generator is fully reliable for all kinds of simulations. Passing a lot of tests may improve one's confidence in the RNG, but never proves that the RNG is foolproof. In fact, no RNG can pass all statistical tests. One could say that a bad RNG is one that fails simple tests, and a good RNG is one that fails only complicated tests that are very hard to find and run.

[The Gamer ™]

Your last RNG was 26th of Sept: 2022 And how many updated have been done after your RNG in 2022 was done. Test was done Feb 2021.
It 2023- 3 year old RNG .

[Dark F0r3sT]

The gamer ... if u were stupid enough spending money on a gambling game and expect to win ur way dumb than ur whole c++ etc knowledge. I play this game and for me its fun and enjoyalbe ... ofc i lose hands bcz as u may know u wont win in games or irl life playing gambling games poker bj etc ... it is known ... u have days and days ... but dont be reckkles when u are losing and bet more u will end up broke ... so all ur reply threads are dumb if u dont understand that this is the game . a gambling one ... play with the money u can afford to lose and stop complaining like ur card irl if u dont have enough money dont spend it on games .