Late game fights...

[DREAD]

I gotta stress I love this game to death.

But late game fights and the AI, gotta talk about it.
Now, gonna preface this by saying I am aware of alternative strategies and optimizing builds and usage of items and all that other ♥♥♥♥. This is not a "Help me" post, this is me pointing out a fundamental issue with this game's approach to combat encounters that starts from around mid game and really ramps up to downright annoying late game. And that's overreliance on what I'll generously call "Turn Stealing".

You know exactly what I'm referring to. Getting inflicted with 2 Turns of Terrify, Charm, Mad, Transfixed, etc. I have played this game a lot, a lot of fights are fun and fairly balanced and have some interesting gimmicks going on. Early on, these Status Ailments will get used like gimmicks and mostly come across like scarce, obnoxious road blocks that demand you either cheese the game or go specific builds. I do not like this. Or, more accurately, I hate this kind of game design; like having a huge canvas of colors with which to paint (Your build and creative freedom) and then being told "You can only use the color Red" (Insert X strategy here). This annoyed me when this game first released and it annoys me now, especially considering this game has an issue with the AI knowing more than it should.

In other words, your tank and your other frontliner that are meant to get into the thick of the fight and soak up damage? Yeah, they're just gonna get Terrified or whatever due to the game inherently building them to have less Magic Armor. That is ASSUMING they get hit first, because the alternative is that the game knows you have Fane, an Undead Character who takes damage from normal healing and the game makes a huge deal about "Concealing his face" so people don't know he's Undead, and then immediately casting Restoration and other powerful healing spells on him as a big nuke which, coincidentally, hurts him most as a Mage given his LACK of Physical Armor. Slap on top of this scenarios where the game literally ambushes you, sometimes in ways you physically cannot work around. Those of you familiar with Arx know what fight I'm probably referring to.

Yes. That one.
The ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Nightmare Arena with Alexander, Wendigo, Malady and whatever other characters they summon to aid them. I want to know who's smart idea it was thinking that "Engaging Gameplay" is having your Turn stolen from you in an encounter when the Enemy has a higher initiative and will go before you and immediately start nuking your entire party in a scenario where everyone spawns into the area clustered up and unable to maneuver around the encounter without triggering the encounter itself. All while the AI preaches some pretentious "You're not worthy" dialogue at you over and over.

Let's be clear here:
I am not saying this is overly difficult or that the encounter is impossible. Not by any measure. What I am saying is that the difficulty here is artificial, not organic, and that the encounter IS NOT FUN. As in, the combination of the AI's deliberate strategy, shenanigans, how they rope you into disadvantage is designed as if the developers were TRYING to test your patience.

I said this in another post, but I play a lot of DND in the background. Been doing it for more than 15 years and am pretty much a "Forever DM". Point being: I know my ♥♥♥♥. And this game is largely inspired by DND type games. If this game were a DM, it would be the very egotistical, railroady type... At least at times. Like I said at the beginning, I love this game. A lot of the encounters are actually well done and have a lot of room for creativity. But there are some, especially near the end, that really just sour the entire experience and take you RIGHT out of the adventure.

For those of you that aren't aware and didn't play the first Divinity, this was an issue with that game as well. They've improved greatly with the sequel, but you can still see snippits of that same problem every so often and I wish mods like "No more omniscient AI" weren't a must just to prevent the AI from immediately targeting your biggest weaknesses, even when it completely breaks immersion and makes them look like meta-gamers at your DND table.

[jonnin]

the problem is skill design more than AI. The whole armor gone = dead design falls apart at higher levels.

[Highrule -1]

In a nutshell, "because the game's combat consists of something more complex than "I hit you, you hit me", the player's creative freedom is stifled".

[Senki]

Quite literally every turn based rpg i've seen is like that. If you refuse to use the tools it gives you, you will have issues. Who would've thought.

As much as you repeat that this post isn't about the game being too hard for you that's all it sounds like. And just because you admitted to not wanting to play the game with everything that it gives you because of some personal agenda that ''this isn't how the game should be played and is bad design''.

They give you everything you need to overcome anything easily, in fact I would argue too easily. The game is severely unbalanced because the player is too op if you use everything you can. If anything should be complained about it's that not the enemies that die from 2 spells late game.

[Echsrick]

seems like it was a good idea to get some mods and play on easy mode to give me more freedom of character building choice

[Chaoslink]

I mean, that's kinda why frontliners don't really work like " your tank and your other frontliner that are meant to get into the thick of the fight and soak up damage? " this. They're NOT meant to go get in the thick of things and soak up damage. The way the armor system works, a melee character with big heavy steel armor isn't any more tanky than a mage. They're just tanky to a different type of damage. This is kinda why, at higher levels of play, I'd say that damage mitigation like resistance and dodge is far more important than armor even. OR just CC the enemy can't attack through. Tossing smoke on rooted enemies is a personal favorite.

On that topic, I really do feel like this is a classic instance of not playing Divinity OS2 as Divinity OS2 and expecting RPG concepts from other media to translate here. Tanks really just do not work in this game. They really don't. There IS an aggro system and just about all of it makes the standard tank build the single least likely to be focused character you can make.

As for railroading... I think that's just the unfortunate reality of turning D&D into a video game like this. There's only so many things they can program into the game for you to do. As a friend and I were just discussing last night, Larian has a very unique problem when it comes to game development. They literally just keep going until they run out of budget for development and kinda get force-stopped by that. So those other options you want them to have at certain spots? Never got added because they ran out of money to add it.


As for the Fane and undead thing, the only explanation is the loremaster skill. Players can see an undead if they're hidden like Dallis at the very start of the game. SO they let the enemy do that too. Honestly, I think its a good thing despite it being immersion breaking, just because the game would be far too easy if enemies basically CC themselves using poison against your undead. Making every encounter require the enemy to trial and error their way around your undead status wouldn't make for good gameplay and would make undead even stronger than they already are (would be best "race" to be if elf racial wasn't so OP). So while I can agree its annoying, I can't agree that it should work differently. Its definitely a hard call to make but I think they made the right one in the end. Definitely a 51%/49% kind of deal where its really close as to which way they should have went.


As for the fight you mention with Malady and the like, all of act 4 was pretty rushed and some parts never got the polish it needed. The fight itself isn't supposed to be won by defeating the enemy though. It has its gimmick with the mirrors you have to break. You're supposed to play a run and hide style there and just escape. Yeah, more railroading in the fights I suppose, not much to be done about it though.

[DREAD]

Yeah, I certainly noticed that a lot with Divinity 1.
Every time I replay through this game I always get so absorbed with how tightly designed the first two islands are that I forget how the third island is kinda've a mess and Arx just has annoying fights.

You're right about the tank bits. Problem is that this game has all of these features that make playing Tanks or Bruisers seem like a sound idea and I TRY to do that on every playthrough because those are my favorite classes in any game. I like Barbarians and Grapplers and what not when it comes to roleplay or fighting game settings. And this game has all of the material there... But god are they weak. The main reason I have them in the party is mostly for distraction purposes because you can manipulate the AI into attacking the nearest possible thing if you position characters correctly ahead of time, especially if you have half the squad entire the fight after it has begun. I just hate that they aren't ACTUALLY a viable option in this game.

There are some other people in these comments that seem like they missed the point I was making entirely, especially the part where I deliberately made a point of saying verbatim: "I am not saying this is overly difficult or that the encounter is impossible. Not by any measure. What I am saying is that the difficulty here is artificial, not organic, and that the encounter IS NOT FUN." I said this because I KNEW there would be some contrarians that would walk in and be like "Oh you're just not playing the game right, lol". No, I don't like a game that is largely about having options suddenly railroading you into a few niche solutions. It's like playing a Fighting Game and having some of your favorite characters be woefully nerfed or underpowered and then having other players be like "Oh just play top tiers, lol". This is a ROLEPLAYING game first and foremost, when you compromise the player's ability to immerse themselves, you've done something wrong. That, and I do love this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game. In fact I wouldn't make these posts if I didn't, I simply think it could do better in certain areas. You're right, it's HARD to do a totally faithful adaptation of a DND style game without compromising things here and there and Larian running their budget thin would definitely explain a lot of the issues.

As for the whole bit about Fane I felt I had to bring up simply because one of the most popular mods in the Workshop is literally "No More Psychic AI". Loremaster can explain some of it, just not all of it. I made the "Meta-Gamer" comment about how it felt because at time it genuinely does feel like a player at your table that is ruining the fun by having the actual DND handbook in their lap looking up exactly how to exploit your biggest weaknesses.

[Chaoslink]

Yeah, Divinity is Divinity when it comes to the combat. Tanks... just don't work. Enemy AI play like the player would, avoiding the low damage guy with tons of health. Why focus them? They're not a threat. Its kinda funny since it makes mages the best tanks technically since equipping them with a shield gives them the best balanced armor of any class and their damage is not really affected much because their weapon isn't used. I know very well about positioning and that stuff too though, that's how you use uncanny dodge to its best. Get an ally in a place they'll be focused then put dodge on them and watch all the attacks do nothing. Mitigation is better than absorbtion when it comes to damage. Why take the damage when you can lower or avoid it?

I'll agree there's some fights that tend to be more tedious than fun. Though most of the more difficult fights tend to be my favorites. As someone who tends to dislike the META in any game, I like the less popular of efficient methods myself. In Divinity's case, it just takes learning the game more to really make the sub-par stuff shine. I think my favorite build was the memory main I used that dealt nearly no damage but had just about every spell at their disposal. Efficient? No. Fun? Most certainly. Learned a lot of neat combos that way too.

Big fan of D&D myself, I'm in three different campaigns right now and have a new character concept I'm really wanting to play, just need a new game to play it in. It isn't META by any means, though it does get proficiency in half the skills and expertise in half of those. In combat though it'll be a little bit lackluster to a degree. Slippery maybe, but I won't break any kill count records for sure. But the concept seems like it'd be fun. Of my other characters though, most are frontliners just like you say you like. I know how enjoyable they can be, even if you're just protecting your allies or setting them up for success. Hell, my Wizard in the game I'll be doing tonight is still a frontliner at times using the Bladesinger subclass. Even in casters I can't get away from the frontlines.

[DREAD]

Yeah, I actually run and make a homebrew myself and have taken a lot of notes from this game. The bit about Tanks, which honestly I cannot call them straight tanks as they deal tons of damage in their own right (I ever have some mods installed for a Berserker class I'm running right now), they're primarily useful when the enemy doesn't bumrush my squishies. Which is actually where the earlier commentors flippantly assumed things. See, the AI will go after my squishies even WHEN it triggers these "Tanks" are standing next to them... With opportunist... And hit harder than any other party member I have. The AI isn't just breaking immersion by trying to meta game, they're doing so in a suicidal manner.

My current party setup is Lohse taking up Warfare in a Constitution Heavy build that has made her nigh unkillable and I'll throw her in to taunt people and hit with sweeping AOE attacks, then there's my custom Dwarf running the Berserk loadout who is almost as beefy but can just absolutely ruin people in melee range, then I changed Sebille from an Assassin to a Ranger midway through (The Rogue builds honestly get really dull past a certain point, especially after casting Adrenaline and her other Action Point ability repeatedly) and I just hit people from afar which I enjoy, and then I have Fan. Fane was originally a Geomancer/Pyromancer build before I just said "I want him to be the Avatar" and cross-built with Aerosophist and Hydrosophist since I took Geomancy out of my Dwarf's build early game. Essentially, he's a swiss army knife and it's really fun, especially since the mods I have expanded the spell categories.

... And then comes in all those "Let me steal your turn" Status Ailments that just spoil the fun. Even with absurdly high Physical and Magical armor, the AI will burn through it just to get a Terrify out. If that doesn't work, they'll use spells to hold them down that don't even need to get past Magical Armor. I think Transfixed is one of them? Either way, the gameplay boils down to literally doing nothing and sitting there and watching the party just get laid into. Past a certain point, if the AI has not killed you, they literally don't know what to do without spells to abuse and will start blundering, but just the fact that I'm sitting there for 2-4 rounds watching without a single shred of input is silly, and this is with the game modified to DECREASE these elements.

Senki up there brought up turn based RPG's always being like this which I find funny as an oldschool FF fan. Those games have times like this, sure, except they don't beat you over the head with it. Like the occasional Great Malboro wiping your party with Bad Breath isn't a comparable situation to this game where every major fight starts turning into "Well just steal their turn". Essentially, what should be an occasional gimmick starts appearing too often. Mind you, this game has "Soft" status ailments. It has things like Root and Silenced, it just DOES NOT use them nearly as often.

[DREAD]

Conversations been good, but I think I'm gonna dip out here.

Remember that lizards are the best lovers.

[Chaoslink]

Yeah, I mean looking at your party there’s some obvious issues I’d usually point out like having only one mage making a 3/1 split and stuff like that. You don’t seem to be having difficulty issues though and that means that even with sub optimal builds you’re doing fine enough.

That’s just how this stuff works. Though if your tank is in any way a hard hitter compared to your Ranger, then your point allocations or something must be off. Archers are beyond any doubt the single highest damage dealing weapon user in the game. If not, then they’re typically build wrong. My personal favorite is making an elemental ranger who deals more magic than physical while still keeping that base physical damage. Only good “true hybrid” in the game really.

[Echsrick]

Originally posted by NEMESIS T-TYPE:

Conversations been good, but I think I'm gonna dip out here.

Remember that lizards are the best lovers.

it realy does sound like that stunlockin (turn stealing) is gettin to be a bit more ridiculous later on, now i wonder, what if the game was like that armor is not just kind of like differend hp, but what it is in many games where you get defense so you take less damage, and the stunlock skills was nothing but a chance to hit, perhaps hp would be made more usefuly? or some builds like tank are actualy workin? giving the player more fredome of character building wich one may only realy have on lower difficulty and using some mods?

alsol i do have a sense for love

[Highrule -1]

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[Echsrick]

Originally posted by Highrule -1:

Originally posted by Dr.Medic (Echsrick):

it realy does sound like that stunlockin (turn stealing) is gettin to be a bit more ridiculous later on, now i wonder, what if the game was like that armor is not just kind of like differend hp, but what it is in many games where you get defense so you take less damage, and the stunlock skills was nothing but a chance to hit, perhaps hp would be made more usefuly? or some builds like tank are actualy workin? giving the player more fredome of character building wich one may only realy have on lower difficulty and using some mods?

How the turntables...

What you're describing is pretty much DOS1. However, the chance-based cc system was hated so much by the mainstream casuals (aka the ones you want to pander to if you want to make your game a financial success) that DOS2 birthed this new armor system.


There's plenty of build freedom on Tactician (never played a lower difficulty so can't comment on those) as long as you understand that game mechanics are a thing. Combat in this game is much more complex than old FF style "you-hit-I-hit" - combat that has basically zero skill/depth involved; if one makes a DOS2 party setup with the expectation that trading blows is all there is to it, the failures and bad times had are going to be a "you" issue, not a game issue.

Being a bad player is not a game issue.
Being an inflexible player is not a game issue.

OP is an entitled rant about the game not conforming to their very specific needs, but here's the thing: there's no way the game can magically know if a player is using a trash bin setup or a minmaxed pinnacle build and adjust itself accordingly. It's the player that has to adjust to what the game presents. In terms of combat balance, the cc spam is an absolute necessity. Players can otherwise cycle through various "can't touch this" methods and occasionally sponge hits with their armor/health pools. For enemies to be actually threatening, they must have a method to brute-force through a player's defensive options (which are already ridiculously OP) and that method happens to be cc spam. If cc spam was removed from the AI arsenal, nobody with a slight grasp on the combat mechanics would ever lose a battle, barring the rare instakill situations.

And playing the game on permanent godmode is an awful lot more boring than having to engage with game mechanics.

so your ok whit it that you cant build characters how you want? being ok that some thing like the tank dont actualy work? that some sort of spellsword dont work? and so being forced to play in a specific way? alsol i dont even play that trash of final fantasy, i preffer dragonquest, the true jrpg, speaking of rpg, every rpg is differend, meaning that you cant realy take 2 way differend games to try look to make the same, but i still think that everything sould be able to stunlock something, i dont know how it is later, im level 10 in driftwood right now, but he makes it sound like that the enemy will just stunlock you no matter what, wich honestly is never fun to just be able to do nothing exchept not getttin hit, wich of course whit range attacks may not realy be possible

[Highrule -1]

Originally posted by Dr.Medic (Echsrick):

so your ok whit it that you cant build characters how you want?

Short answer is yes. Maybe in the distant future games will be able to adjust themselves based on any playstyle a player prefers, but right now you have to go by what works based on the game's rules. It's a matter of dealing with hard limitations, not about what one wants or likes.

Originally posted by Dr.Medic (Echsrick):

so your ok whit it that you cant build characters how you want? being ok that some thing like the tank dont actualy work? that some sort of spellsword dont work?

Tank does work. You just have to build it with Glass Cannon talent as a basis; with that the enemies actually focus your tank, making it act as the aggro target it's supposed to be. Chaoslink says tanks are pointless because a full DPS team is always more effective than a team with a tank in it; this does not mean that playing tanks is not possible. Two very different concepts.

I'm not familiar with the concept of a "spellsword", but melees do benefit from several spells that are pretty much meant to be used by a melee character.

One concept that is dead in the water is frontliner, at least on Tactician. More than half of the enemies you encounter have some type of movement or displacement skill, making front/backlines a moot concept since enemies can generally travel to either one.

Originally posted by Dr.Medic (Echsrick):

...but i still think that everything sould be able to stunlock something, i dont know how it is later, im level 10 in driftwood right now, but he makes it sound like that the enemy will just stunlock you no matter what, wich honestly is never fun to just be able to do nothing exchept not getttin hit, wich of course whit range attacks may not realy be possible

This is incorrect. The damage enemies deal gets higher and higher as game goes on, meaning your armor does get ripped to shreds pretty fast. However, I've never been forced into a position where I got stunlocked to death. There are enough defensive/supportive mechanics to fight any debuffs or cc the enemy might inflict upon you.

Even without a magic class in your party you can generally craft enough spell scrolls to make yourself feel safe in case the ♥♥♥♥ does hit the fan.

I played the game solely on the highest difficulty (Tactician/Honour) and never used a mod to things easier, whereas OP needs mods that make the game easier even though he already plays on a lower difficulty (or that's the idea I'm getting anyway); the difference is that I don't shy away from learning the game mechanics. The claim that you need to have a very specific strategy for some encounter is total bull. Game offers you enough tools to go about any encounter in multiple ways.