Aero/Hydro vs Geo/Pyro and what squad builds?

[White]

I have tried all the characters extensively in the "hotseat arena" solo and vs AI and I would like to have a staff wielding mage as my main.
I find Aero/Hydro more coherent visually (and the glasses NPC uses a staff instead of wands), but I found that in the arena the Pyro/Geo guys are insanely strong, like it's not even fair to compare the two. Even though it probably feels miserable to navigate a map of fire.

Pyro/Geo also seems to have better chain reaction type effects and since you need up front damage to CC, they end up CCing faster.

How would a party around a sorcerer type look? I assume have 2 mages, but what should the others be?
Based on reading the backstories and visuals I'll be going with Custom MC, Fane, Sebile, Red Prince. Fane probably some sort of secondary caster, Sebile as some archer type and red prince idk.
Would this work?

I'm always overthinking what to play and what to pick in games like this. Been a good couple days and I haven't even started lmao.
I just want to avoid suffering due to bad decisions.

[Chaoslink]

Typically, the mechanically best option is two casters of similar elements. Pyro/Geo is better for raw damage but Aero/Hydro basically CCs passively. I prefer Aero/Hydro personally and tend to make two mages that each focus more on the opposite element of the other but run both.

In your setup, whatever you have Red do, likely melee of some kind, treat him like a support and have him set up elemental affinity and such using some spells so the others get off first turn with lower AP costs. Even if your first turn on Red does nothing offensive, you’ll gain more AP than you lose by getting both mages their elemental affinity first and if both mages use the same elements, it helps you do this effectively without pre-battle setup.

[White]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Typically, the mechanically best option is two casters of similar elements. Pyro/Geo is better for raw damage but Aero/Hydro basically CCs passively. I prefer Aero/Hydro personally and tend to make two mages that each focus more on the opposite element of the other but run both.

In your setup, whatever you have Red do, likely melee of some kind, treat him like a support and have him set up elemental affinity and such using some spells so the others get off first turn with lower AP costs. Even if your first turn on Red does nothing offensive, you’ll gain more AP than you lose by getting both mages their elemental affinity first and if both mages use the same elements, it helps you do this effectively without pre-battle setup.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, it is preferable to have two mages both using Aero/Hydro (or Geo/Pyro), but one leaning hard into Aero and the other learning hard into Hydro. Right?
I felt like it would be counter productive to have all 4 elements on the same party between 2 mages as Fire gets extinguished and freezes get melted.

[Chaoslink]

Yeah exactly. You do want a slight dip into the less compatible element(s) so you’re not useless in a fight where your element is resisted/immune, but those fights aren’t too common. By having mages with the same element pair, you can set up the elemental affinity talent for both at the same time and at most it typically costs 3AP to do.

Basically, Red might be a two handed knight, but you’d give him a point in Hydro for Rain and a point in Aero for Electric Discharge. Then give him wits or initiative gear so he goes first. His first turn is to cast those two spells such that the enemy is made wet by the rain but the water pools at the feet of your mages. Then you just hit the floor with lightning so it’s electrified water. That’s 3 AP from Red, possibly 4 if you also have him Haste a mage. Then your mages go with -1AP to all their air and water spells. If they burn two 2AP spells and one 3AP spell, that’s a savings of 6 AP total, 7 if you hasted one and they cast an extra 2AP spell. Sure, Red’s first turn did nothing for himself, but he’s melee and probably wants the enemy to close the gap first. In the meantime, he just let the mages blow nearly everything they have turn one, even moreso later on if both mages have Adrenaline or other AP boosting spells.

It’s a crazy powerful setup most of the time, and if you build the archer to be my Elemental Ranger who deals more magic damage than physical, while still keeping their base physical damage, they play into the weakened magic armor as well as being able to strip physical armor for Red later on.

[AlexanderM2]

Necro Sebille!

[White]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

One last thing. Aero/Hydro seems more elegant, but I'm reading online and based on the arena experiences Geo/Pyro just seems to do so much more damage that I can't even compare the two.
Maybe the Aero/Hydro mage guy is sub-optimal or something, but it feels like they don't do anything until I get the magic armor down to 0, while the Geo/Pyro has no issues blowing through them and then some.
How much more difficult is it to go Aero/Hydro ingame? You said you prefer it personally so I assume you have quite some experience with it.
Is it more of a struggle, since you cant just blow people up? Again, maybe I'm just missing some key abilities that the pre-made Arena guys don't have for burst damage.

[Chaoslink]

Never touched arena so I can’t speak on that. In a full team, first step is always hitting them with Rain first. Not only is Wet half of the two stage CC, but it also makes air spells hit 20% harder and Water spells hit 10% harder. You have to usually lean on Aero for damage as Hydro tends to deal less per AP. Still, most of the time they still pack the punch to get through armor and since you should always be hitting them while wet, it’ll CC them instantly when the armor breaks. So all you have to do is break armor, unlike Pyro/Geo which has to attack with a CC spell after armor is broken since very few Pyro or Geo spells come with their own built in CC.

[Chaoslink]

Pyro is basically the hardest hitting with normal spells, Geo is the hardest hitting overall using it’s source spells, Aero is the hardest hitting that also CC’s naturally and Hydro is the strongest at CC given icy ground tends to cause a lot of slipping in addition to freezing them with the casts. Damage per AP with Hydro is its weak point and it has the fewest offensive spells of all four. Geo can pair well with physical damage though as slow lowers dodge and it has physical based CC as well as ways to deal physical damage if built right.

Each is good though, in their own ways.

[Chaoslink]

To note, it might also be worthwhile to consider a Summoner as well. Allows you to alter the element you focus at will as well as do some really fun things. My favorite is the shocking trap of annoying where you get steam over water, then put an electric totem there. Toss an enemy in so they're affected by the water at their feet and the steam in their face and as long as they have no magic armor, the totem will keep hitting both effects literally locking them down as long as the totem lasts.

Summoners also make for excellent support characters that can set up elemental affinities for your mages, then use Adrenaline to summon their incarnate.

[baggybaf]

you are right but we can still say that geo is best when it is mastered because it has the best CC in the game. the combo of slowness and blindness works well too.
anyway the pyro/geo must use aero to be optimized and the hydro/aero is very compatible with the geo.

So geo/pyro > hydro/aero not only for damage

[White]

Thank you for the responses. I really wish there was a build tester game mode or something like the roguelike dungeon of Pathfinder kingmaker. A real struggle to decide things.
I considered summoner myself, but the issue is I found some guy with an extensive guide on how summoner needs more investment than just the 10 points or it falls off. Might have it on a support-er secondary char, but not my main.

[Chaoslink]

I mean, you can search the forum for a thread titled “why is summoner so bad” or something like that and see a full discussion I took part in awhile ago that really details the build. In the end it’s still a viable build to play, it just doesn’t work when you really start cranking the numbers up beyond what you see in the game normally.

It still fills the support role perfectly and is honestly better than any melee build would be in the team I described.