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So, if huntsman says 15%? it's 15% of w/e you end up with after proccing Crits, Warfare dmg, Scoundrel Crit bonus dmg, etc etc EVERYTHING
meaning you don't really need huntsman to have super high levels early on outside of learning skills
Beyond that, Idk.
I read different kind of informations, saying Huntsman is multiplicative just like warfare, so as good as warfare in terms of damage increase (except it's more situational since you need high ground, so warfare is better).
But you are saying that warfare, and scoundrel are better than huntsman.
So a ranger with high crit chance should max out warfare, then scoundrel, then huntsman.
warfare and scoundrel > huntsman.
But I still wonder what deals more damage bewteen warfare and scoundrel (for a rogue or ranger with high crit chance who would deal crit attacks consistently).
TL;DR at bottom
Never said Huntsman was multiplicative or not, just that it procs last when it comes to adding up dmg. It even procs after the crit multiplier. Essentially this:
Warfare/Scoundrel/literally any other dmg bonuses added together; take that number and add Huntsman bonus dmg to it. That's how huntsman works. It's just the LAST multiplier of any kind to be added.
The skill itself says so in it's tool tip.
It would depend on exactly how often a character crits. if they crit 100% of the time from level 1? (Impossible yea, but this is just for an example/theory) I'm not sure without doing some math with the percentages for each option. But, since it's impossible to crit 100% of the time from level 1, Warfare will in the long run, grant you more dmg than Scoundrel, not counting skills pertaining to said options.
However, if we include skills? Unsure, because I believe putting points into scoundrel does increase the dmg of said skills, but so does warfare on most of them since it increases physical dmg in general.
Honestly? for skills/spells, it will depend on the exact gain you get from putting points into scoundrel compared to the % gain of warfare. The only other thing would of course be level warfare or scoundrel on a warfare based character: obviously you ignore scoundrel entirely and don't bother too much with crit there.
But for scoundrel characters, We'd need the info on how much said skill ups the dmg on spells from that tree. Scoundrel wins if they crit 100% of the time, but this is only if you can crit 100% of the starting at level 1, since crit dmg starts at an extra 50% for autos, and apparently 20% for spells. Warfare's first point is I think only 3 or 4%? maybe 5?
Still less than 20%.
TL;DR is: Scoundrel wins if you can crit 100% of the time from level one, but Warfare wins otherwise if you are starting from level 1 and growing to max level and adding up all that dmg. If we are talking end game rogue/ranger? You probably have 10 points in both Warfare and Scoundrel anyways, and possibly some in Huntsman if you are a ranger.
Scoundrel, I'd say is pretty high on the list, if not more preferable, with regard to Rogues/Shadowblades where you're often relying on Backstabbing and teleporting/moving around (because it not only gives crit multiplier but move speed/distance); lots of guerrilla warfare and crit damage.
Huntsman, I find, it best for archer-focused types or even purely ranged magic types in some cases (if you pair them together, it's useful to include investment on the Mage's side with Leadership, at least 3 or 4 points). Ideally, you'll be having them on high ground whenever possible for the advantage and damage bonus (default +20%, +5% per level of Huntsman). It's just as feasible to go "halvesies" with Scoundrel and Huntsman on a Ranger, if said Ranger is investing in Wits + Polymorph (for extra points to dump into Wits, if not supplement other Attribute(s) like Finesse) + a little bit of Scoundrel for that good-good Guerrilla Trait at least (+40% damage when attacking from sneak) + if your archer is an Elf (because of Flesh Sacrifice giving an additional +10% damage at the temporary loss of some Consitution). This all assuming too you're not just outright near-doubling investments via the Lone Wolf Trait, potentially in tandem with Hothead (+10% crit chance and accuracy while at full health).
There's a lot of variety to be had, tbh.
As far as an in-depth try at explaining the damage formula, there's this video: https://youtu.be/Ux6iMF_stCQ?t=146
Does it means it is worse than the other damages ?
So scoundrel is 100% better than warfare on a rogue ? (who crits all the time ?)
Scoundrel is better on a ranger with high crit chances, over warfare, or huntsman ?
I know on high level you max out at least two skills.
But I ask the question for the gear bonus.
What should I choose first on those, warfare ? Scoundrel ? Huntsman ?
I still don't understand
TL;DR at bottom, which is just the answer to your main question of what gear bonuses you want.
It's not better or worse, it just applies last, and even then it's only applied if you have the high ground, which, not every fight will allow you to have.
You could say Huntsman having such high Percent damage gains so early is balanced due to the slight rarity in which you can guarantee making use of it. Overall, you can't really compare it with Scoundrel and Warfare.
As for early game? Rogues wont crit enough to justify Scoundrel on gear; so unless they need like, one more point to use a specific spell that rounds out your early Scoundrel combos, don't bother.
Otherwise, just get Finesse/Strength, Wits/Con, or Warfare on any physical dmg dealer early on, Rogue or not. (Necros included, since 99% of their dmg is physical, not magical. Bleeding is considered physical dmg too. You just want finesse, int, or str, depending on exactly how your necro is playing: Tank, melee damage, or ranged damage with wands/staff)
As for a ranger? Maybe while in fort joy a piece or two of gear with Huntsman could help since it has a lot of easy to use High Ground, especially if you have tactical retreat. But once you leave for joy, it gets tougher and tougher to consistently find places with good high ground you can use for the entirety of a fight. A lot of the time, at least one or two enemies are out of range even if you're on the high ground, if only because the AI sometimes seems like it likes to run around in circles on the spot. (Not literally, but it's not far off once you realize what part of the AI I mean.) Most of the time it's just the fact that the closest high ground would require you to lure the enemy in, and that's mostly only feasible in the lower two difficulties unless you want to lose a quarter or more of your armor, and possibly some hp in unlucky by the time you lure them close enough to high ground to matter.
This is all while excluding the fact that attribute bonuses exist on gear too. Because Finesse will not only increase dmg from Finesse Weapons, but any dmg you do with those weapons using skills too. for example: you are using two daggers for weapons and smack someone with a warfare skill; having more finesse will add slight increases to that warfare skill too; this means that as long as the dmg of the skill is also increased from the weapon you are wielding, which is 90% of the Warfare and Scoundrel skills. So, finesse weapons can affect Warfare skills, and Strength weapons can technically affect Scoundrel skills, if not for the fact 90% of them state they require a dagger to be equipped to be used.
TL;DR:
You want Warfare over Scoundrel for any kind of physical dmg dealer when it comes to bonuses for early gear. Finesse/Strength bonuses won't hurt either if you can get a mix of both since your weapons, both Finesse and Strength type, also affect the skill dmg of Warfare and Scoundrel skills, albeit most Scoundrel skills require the use of a dagger.
My understanding is, generally, yes; it's better to have higher crit chance/dmg than raw damage on a Rogue/Shadowblade, because when you crit you'll (depending on other factors of the build) be doing more damage on average than if you just purely invested into Warefare to increase your base damage. That's more or less how % additions/multiplicatives work.
The formula is approximately -- Damage = (Base Damage) x (1 + Elemental Bonus%) x (1 + Attribute Bonus% + Weapon Skill Bonus% + Misc Bonuses% [if attack]) x (1 + High Ground Bonus% + Crit Bonus%) x ( 1 + Misc Bonus% [if spell]). Therein, too, Weapon skills (1H, 2H, Ranged, Dual) are additive, while School skills (Elements, Warfare, Scoundrel, Poly) are multiplicative, which is why you see One-Handed give less dmg buff compared to Warfare; though with OH you do get far more Accuracy which is always welcome.
For a Ranger I'd go with a mix of Crit chance + Crit damage (so, dump into Wits + Scoundrel), since Rangers can't backstab but they do gain access to multi-hitting attacks, such as Ricochet and Barrage whose shots can each chance to crit independently.
At a base level, barring specific factors, I did testing just now to kinda demonstrate, for melee.
No equipment except 1 basic dagger (Lv7) , Story difficulty
Tested on an unarmored Hired Companion , for "avg" damage Companion was struck 15 times.
- 25 Finesse , 8 Warfare [+40% dmg]
-- Base dmg range: 40-44
--- Reg hit dmg avg: 41
--- Backstab Crit dmg max: 66
Crit: 46.7% dmg increase
- 25 Finesse , 8 Scoundrel [+40% crit dmg mult]
-- Base dmg range: 28-31
--- Reg hit dmg avg: 31
--- Backstab Crit dmg max: 58
Crit: 60.6% dmg increase
--------------------------
From here, tested using same 'no equipment' as before but with addition of gloves that give 2% crit chance, so that I could actually land crit without dumping into skills and alterating the base metrics), and relevant weapon(s)
Using basic 1H sword (Lv 7 , 12-13dmg , +150% crit dmg)
- 25 Strength, 8 Warfare [+40% dmg]
-- Base dmg range: 47-51
--- Reg hit dmg avg: 49
--- Crit dmg: 73
Crit: 39% dmg increase
- 25 Strength, 8 One-Handed [+40% dmg]
-- Base dmg range: 38-41
--- Reg hit dmg avg: 39
--- Crit dmg: 58
Crit: 39% dmg increase
--------------------------
Using basic 2H sword (Lv 7 , 19-21dmg)
- 25 Strength, 8 Warfare [+40% dmg]
-- Base dmg range: 75-82
--- Reg hit dmg avg: 79
--- Crit dmg: 114
Crit: 36% dmg increase
- 25 Strength, 8 Two-Handed [+40% dmg , +40% crit mult]
-- Base dmg range: 60-67
--- Reg hit dmg avg: 64
--- Crit dmg: 114
Crit: 56% dmg increase
The exact formulas are a little confusing, but all in all it's generally just worth noting that, yes, Warfare is "supreme" in most cases.
Plus bearing in mind, this leaves out a huge number of contributing variables and stats provided by any number of pieces of gear and weapons themselves + runes + buffs from spells/skills/traits + High Ground (for Rangers/Spells).
HOPEFULLY, though, this helps with your understanding.
Personally, I just say go all Warfare as I don’t feel the difference between Scoundrel and Warfare is all that large even on a rogue. Could be wrong though. Last time I looked at it in detail was before the DE version came out which was what, 2018?
OP is asking specifically for early game it seems though. For those first few gear pieces. Whether he should look for ones with Scoundrel for his rouge/ranger class, or just stick with Warfare due to lack of crit chance early game. for the first few levels, or until you have decent crit chance, warfare wins out easy. Act I levels on a rogue/ranger should honestly just be Warfare with just enough Huntsman/Scoundrel to be able to learn the Ranger/Rogue skills. Late game? When you have decent crit? Yes investing more into Scoundrel will up your damage a good chunk. But early game it's all Warfare.
If it's a debate between going only Scoundrel or only Warfare? That's not really a great debate since they use completely different skills to deal dmg, and Warfare skills can't normally back stab. That, and Warfare skills are all more or less meant for a sustained, AoE dmg fight where you are hitting multiple guys at once, whereas a Scoundrel will kill one guy to start his combo, absolutely Nuke one, maybe two people next turn after proccing the combo, and then take another round and a half to build up their combo again before nuking a boss to half hp in one go.
Their play styles are so different, you can really only compare the two skills when it comes to Ranger/Rogue characters. But even then, it's mostly based on your character level. Early game, grab Warfare gear/points, once you start critting around half the time or more, invest some points into scoundrel. Max both once you get enough levels to do so. Honestly, if you ignore Constitution entirely, and make them squishy af, it wouldn't take all that long to have enough wits for 50%+ crit chance - even without going lone wolf - so long as you get lucky with gear stat rolls and have like 3 or 4 pieces of gear with 2 or more wits. If you REALLY wanna make it fast, making crit/wits potions will make it even faster.
people who play scoundrel with 1 vs 1 have not understood its potential.
a Scoundrel is played with AOE and that is its power: easy movement behind grouped enemies for overpowering AOEs or ability to create corpses.
The only advantage of the knight is wider AOE but that does not compensate for the critical.
for the ranger who benefits from 20% height damage by default it is also much more powerful. moreover it is not the level of damage that must be looked at but the damage/AP: if you use AP to move you do less damage.
In practice it is much faster to paralyze enemies and kill them from a distance.
only rogue with its criticals can compete at the start of the game with backstab when it is played well.
DEX > STR except at the end of the game when the knight has a critical chance rate which approaches 80-90% and with armor.
As I said, they can't normally backstab. Mostly because of what you said, where you have to be in the right spot. And normally you won't be, except maybe if you battering ram behind them on the first turn, not caring about whether you knock them down or not, and then using skills. Yea, they can backstab, but 90% of the time, you aren't going to be in a position in which to utilize it without finagling the AI.
Scoundrel have skills specifically meant to put them in backstab positions however. Making them able backstab at least a few times every turn.
On top of that there is that talent that gives you more hp, so even if scoundrel was slightly better, it might not be worth it still.
I just hesitate now between scoundrel over huntsman for my ranger...
It will depend of course of how high I can put my crit chances.
So far 60%, which isn't enough, but I'm sure I can increase that a bit, and if I reach 80% I don't know anymore if scoundrel would be better than huntsman.