Like playing DND with a hostile DM that has no concept of rule zero.

[Dr.Corpse]

This game is aggravatingly "against" the player party. at not even halfway past the second act, I propably run out of fingers trying to count every NPC whose attitude can be summed up as "mysterious, smug, and condescending" whilst the amount of actually likeable characters that have an impact on the story approaches zero.

9 out of 10 combat encounters are like the DM has a fetish on ambushes- enemies are always on elevated ledges, almost every enemy independent of their class has at least one teleportation or flying ability and has no terrain traverse penalty whatsoever. LOS and movement arcs are impossible to read from the graphics, making ranged attacks and attacks that require you to move in a line constant game of guessing.

Quests are described very haphazardly in the journal and on the map, and have no indication on their actual importance, making progress a guessing game. Inventory is full of chaff, hard to read, and makes no effort on trying to hint at the player which items are useful and if tehy are what they are used for. crafting is.. yea lets not talk about crafting.

its like the developers are trying to make a tabletop RPG where they exemplify a hostile DM that is intent on there not being any fun at the table- "no you cant" is always number one argument whenever the player gets an idea, and plot is "!!!mysterious and dramatic!!!" rather than "interesting."

it is super aggravating, considering the potential of the game.

oh and shadow over driftwood with its but-thou-must party separation can eat a turd. its literally a big middle finger to the players face.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by Dr.Corpse:

"9 out of 10 combat encounters are like the DM has a fetish on ambushes- enemies are always on elevated ledges, almost every enemy independent of their class has at least one teleportation or flying ability and has no terrain traverse penalty whatsoever."

"its like the developers are trying to make a tabletop RPG where they exemplify a hostile DM that is intent on there not being any fun at the table"

This is not D&D. This is not a tabletop game. This is a PC RPG series called Divinity.

[Chaoslink]

Meanwhile, the tools given to you to deal with most of these things that you probably aren’t using. You can have just as many teleports as the enemy does, nothing stopping you there. You can even counter theirs with roots, spoiler alert, most can be made to ignore armor.

The split party situation can be resolved with the waypoint system or simply trading the teleport pyramids around to gather up again.

The only reason ambushes are common is that enemies are incredibly vulnerable to one shots if they exist before combat. The player is that OP.

The rest of your complaints are valid I suppose, opinions can’t be right or wrong for the most part.

[Janthis]

This is Larian, they basically expect you to reload fights and try different strategies once you know what will happen because enemies will start in ambush positions / will cheat with initiative every time. BG3 is the same way, so buyer beware.

As for none of the NPCs being nice or likeable... Larian again, see above.

[Yojo0o]

I gotta disagree. I think you're taking this from the wrong angle. I mean, if the game's not fun for you, there's not much I can say otherwise, but I think you might find it more fun if you adjust your expectations a bit.

I'm a huge DnD player and DM, and the comparison to DnD resonates with me, but I disagree with your conclusion. Traditional DnD naturally has a much different balance than a video game like this. In a DnD campaign, you're dealing with limited information, you're probably engaging in several encounters per adventuring day, and your DM is probably at least somewhat inclined to help you not die to avoid rolling up a fresh character. There's no reload button in DnD, so punches are always going to be at least somewhat pulled if the DM is averse to TPKing. It's a delicate dance to balance a game as a DM.

Since we're playing a computer game, balance is different. You get to rest between each fight and don't have finite resources, so the concept of wearing down the party over the period of an adventuring day is gone. Instead, each battle is designed to be potentially deadly. Enemies do smart things like set up in elevated positions. That's not a "hostile" DM, that's a DM letting the enemies use the same tactics and logic as the players might in order to deliver a challenge. Enemies can teleport around, but so can you, it's a major component of the system at play here. You'd do well to give each of your characters at least one mobility option. Classes aren't a thing in this system, so if you're trying to copy a DnD party, you're handicapping yourself.

Considering your DnD background, I'm surprised by your opinion on the quests. Quests in this game aren't of the "kill ten boars" variety. The journal itself doesn't really need to factor in. Like in any DnD quest, you should be able to simply listen to the NPC, figure out what they need, and then go do the thing when you're ready to do so.

Can't really help you with NPC preference. I quite like many of the NPCs in DOS2. Malady is probably one of my favorite non-playable companions of any RPG, even though she doesn't get a whole lot to do.

[The.Spaz.]

That's why I am hoping, hit or miss, BG3 would be a very learning experience for the team. I feel like Larian is not quite as experienced as one may think, despite their age. BG in general has a storied past and its D&D. The amount of backlash they would get from halfassing it would be insurmountable, I think.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by The.Spaz.:

That's why I am hoping, hit or miss, BG3 would be a very learning experience for the team. I feel like Larian is not quite as experienced as one may think, despite their age. BG in general has a storied past and its D&D. The amount of backlash they would get from halfassing it would be insurmountable, I think.

Oh, agreed there. If BG3 fails, there's gonna be hell to pay.

I'm enjoying what I've seen of it so far. I expect OP might not.

[Dr.Corpse]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Meanwhile, the tools given to you to deal with most of these things that you probably aren’t using. You can have just as many teleports as the enemy does, nothing stopping you there. You can even counter theirs with roots, spoiler alert, most can be made to ignore armor.

The split party situation can be resolved with the waypoint system or simply trading the teleport pyramids around to gather up again.

The only reason ambushes are common is that enemies are incredibly vulnerable to one shots if they exist before combat. The player is that OP.

The rest of your complaints are valid I suppose, opinions can’t be right or wrong for the most part.

its not that there arent tools to "solve" the puzzles that Larian thinks the fights are, its the fact that every single fight, no matter what you are facing, be an ambush by brigands or randomg frogs by the wayside the enemy always has everything set up as the "perfect storm" which becomes super tedious very fast and wears on any sort of suspension of disbelief (what is the purpose for a godwoken to even exist if literally every villager at riftwood already is lvl9 and can also cast lvl 2-3 spells? just give them proper weapons and armor and sic'em at the voidmonsters).

same goes for the party separation. I know i HAVE tools to fix the mess, but taking the player agency and playstyle (team that supports each other) and forcing their hand because PLOT is jsut again laughing at the player. yes, its a change of pace and a "challenge", no it isnt exactly a part i would call fun.

this isnt anything new; it can be said to be one of the arch-sins of the western CRPGs bc i remember noting the exact same thing all the way back in the first Dragon Age long long time ago. its not about "challenge" is about tedium- the game looks the player in the face and says it does not want the player to have fun (rule zero) but to play on the games term, whether the player likes it or not. if I want difficulty I play dwarf fortress thank you very much.

RPGs run on the idea that players want to engage the world. on almost every level (story presentation, game interface, working with the game systems, encounter design) Larian actively work against that. Crpgs dont have the mercy of having a DM you can bounce ideas off (hey if i PEEK down from this battlement I can throw this grenade down, even if there is an obstacle that in the drawn map prevents me, right?" - "hey DM this is the seventh smug ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wizard on this plot and we still havent found the railroad and really dont feel engaged on this whole "godwoken" story, can you throw us a rubber mallet version of the plot or point us to next direction of level-relevant main quest without us having to guess and run in circles") but thats why these things need to be taken into account in game design. My last RPG was jumping back to play Planescape:torrent 6 months ago, and whilst the plot at the beginning is visibly thin, the somewhat simple exploration means the game nudges you along until the main plot becomes more cohesive. OG Dragon age did the same, by clearly presenting the main plotlines and forcingly noting the player "here is a level-gated main quest dont go there yet" in dividing the areas of travel.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Dr.Corpse:

its not that there arent tools to "solve" the puzzles that Larian thinks the fights are, its the fact that every single fight, no matter what you are facing, be an ambush by brigands or randomg frogs by the wayside the enemy always has everything set up as the "perfect storm" which becomes super tedious very fast and wears on any sort of suspension of disbelief (what is the purpose for a godwoken to even exist if literally every villager at riftwood already is lvl9 and can also cast lvl 2-3 spells? just give them proper weapons and armor and sic'em at the voidmonsters).

I'll take it over trash packs. You just played PS:T. How incredibly boring is it for random street thugs and Xaositects to decide to scrap every time you pause for a moment in the streets of Sigil? Battles in DOS2 are all designed to test you tactically on some level.

same goes for the party separation. I know i HAVE tools to fix the mess, but taking the player agency and playstyle (team that supports each other) and forcing their hand because PLOT is jsut again laughing at the player. yes, its a change of pace and a "challenge", no it isnt exactly a part i would call fun.

I think changing up the status quo of the party strategy is a great way to generate challenge. It's specifically NOT because of "plot", it's a tactical switchup. This is present in all sorts of other games in the genre. Jailbreaks where you don't have your gear, having certain party members unavailable for a stretch while you rescue or reconnect with them, solo segments, etc. are all ways to freshen things up. Sometimes this sort of practice provides engaging segments. Sometimes it kinda sucks. Up to you how this instance of such a practice fits within your preferences, but it's worth noting that you can entirely skip it if you so desire. I personally enjoyed the stealthy interlude.

this isnt anything new; it can be said to be one of the arch-sins of the western CRPGs bc i remember noting the exact same thing all the way back in the first Dragon Age long long time ago. its not about "challenge" is about tedium- the game looks the player in the face and says it does not want the player to have fun (rule zero) but to play on the games term, whether the player likes it or not. if I want difficulty I play dwarf fortress thank you very much.

Disagreed across the board. You don't like... difficulty? Really? Then turn down the difficulty, there are plenty of difficulty options. I don't even know what this means. PS:T is a narrative experience with very little actual tactical depth. If that's exclusively the sort of RPG you're interested in, then you're welcome to that opinion, but you should be more discerning with the sort of RPG you pick up, as PS:T is a very rare example and not archetypal of the genre as a whole. You can crank the difficulty of DOS2 down to Story mode if you want a similar experience, that's what the option is there for.

RPGs run on the idea that players want to engage the world. on almost every level (story presentation, game interface, working with the game systems, encounter design) Larian actively work against that. Crpgs dont have the mercy of having a DM you can bounce ideas off (hey if i PEEK down from this battlement I can throw this grenade down, even if there is an obstacle that in the drawn map prevents me, right?" - "hey DM this is the seventh smug ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wizard on this plot and we still havent found the railroad and really dont feel engaged on this whole "godwoken" story, can you throw us a rubber mallet version of the plot or point us to next direction of level-relevant main quest without us having to guess and run in circles") but thats why these things need to be taken into account in game design. My last RPG was jumping back to play Planescape:torrent 6 months ago, and whilst the plot at the beginning is visibly thin, the somewhat simple exploration means the game nudges you along until the main plot becomes more cohesive. OG Dragon age did the same, by clearly presenting the main plotlines and forcingly noting the player "here is a level-gated main quest dont go there yet" in dividing the areas of travel.

You're free to not like style at play here, but there's not much more to be said. I hated DA:O, I found the story to be aggravatingly on rails to the point where logic was out the window for me, and the only aspects of the game I can even remember are the parts where I felt like breaking the controller.

[Dr.Corpse]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by The.Spaz.:

That's why I am hoping, hit or miss, BG3 would be a very learning experience for the team. I feel like Larian is not quite as experienced as one may think, despite their age. BG in general has a storied past and its D&D. The amount of backlash they would get from halfassing it would be insurmountable, I think.

Oh, agreed there. If BG3 fails, there's gonna be hell to pay.

I'm enjoying what I've seen of it so far. I expect OP might not.

there are enjoyable parts to the game, hence the aggravation. a game thats without any merit warrants no discussion- uninstall, refund, move on.

Larian CAN write characters when they really put the effort; the main thing this games plot rides on are the siz pre-made characters who are interesting enough to be the secondary plot.

the combat system is interesting-ish, but hampered because there is only one mode of combat ever which is "another ambush, different skins, same abilities" and the only difference is which elements the enemies are this time. there is never "oh hey this time the enemy does NOT have any ranged firepower" or "hey this time we actually caught them flatfooted" variation, its always, independent of enemy type, either a boss or a bunch of enemies on a ambush setup cheesing the initiative with absolute freedom of manouver and possessing at least one ranged/spellcaster/melee, placed on parts of the terrain they need to be at.

its lack of variation, and starting the entire game world from the premise that the game world is playing against the player, players are not interacting with the game world.

[The.Spaz.]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by The.Spaz.:

That's why I am hoping, hit or miss, BG3 would be a very learning experience for the team. I feel like Larian is not quite as experienced as one may think, despite their age. BG in general has a storied past and its D&D. The amount of backlash they would get from halfassing it would be insurmountable, I think.

Oh, agreed there. If BG3 fails, there's gonna be hell to pay.

I'm enjoying what I've seen of it so far. I expect OP might not.

Definitely going to give BG3 a lot of time to cook/update after release. Normally I would imagine Larian would still be doling out updates to this game were BG3 not a huge offer that just dropped onto their lap. Get the feeling BG3 is too big for them to just release and move on, so they will be supporting it far longer than OS2. Still rather surprised they got this deal instead of Inexile.

[Senki]

Originally posted by Dr.Corpse:

the combat system is interesting-ish, but hampered because there is only one mode of combat ever which is "another ambush, different skins, same abilities" and the only difference is which elements the enemies are this time. there is never "oh hey this time the enemy does NOT have any ranged firepower" or "hey this time we actually caught them flatfooted" variation, its always, independent of enemy type, either a boss or a bunch of enemies on a ambush setup cheesing the initiative with absolute freedom of manouver and possessing at least one ranged/spellcaster/melee, placed on parts of the terrain they need to be at.

its lack of variation, and starting the entire game world from the premise that the game world is playing against the player, players are not interacting with the game world.

Sounds like you only remember those kind of fights more because they were the ones that angered you. There is variation. Could've been more sure but saying it doesn't exist is false. There are plenty of instances where you can see the enemies and ambush them yourself. Sometimes they are even already fighting something else and are hurt allowing you to jump in for an easy win.

[Janthis]

I just wanted to add I mostly agree with the "hostile DM" feeling and add another feeling I had throughout, that the game often takes control away from you and does whatever it wants. The Mordus cave is a glaring example, but I saw it often during interactions.

For example, in the first act when talking to Radeka the witch, she kisses you and infects you with disease. There is no option to refuse or resist this, it's simply a consequence of talking to her. The same thing happens a bit later with Malady biting your ear. Again, no warning and no option to refuse. Then you've got instances of various NPCs insulting or threatening you, and your only option is to try passing a persuasion check even if you'd rather just tell them off or kill them. Or things like the scarecrow fight where you have the option to resist, but it doesn't do anything. It's like the game telling you "This is gonna happen whether you want it or not." I can't say I've seen the same in other RPGs, or at least not to this degree, and I've played a lot of them.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Johnny_B_80:

I just wanted to add I mostly agree with the "hostile DM" feeling and add another feeling I had throughout, that the game often takes control away from you and does whatever it wants. The Mordus cave is a glaring example, but I saw it often during interactions.

For example, in the first act when talking to Radeka the witch, she kisses you and infects you with disease. There is no option to refuse or resist this, it's simply a consequence of talking to her. The same thing happens a bit later with Malady biting your ear. Again, no warning and no option to refuse. Then you've got instances of various NPCs insulting or threatening you, and your only option is to try passing a persuasion check even if you'd rather just tell them off or kill them. Or things like the scarecrow fight where you have the option to resist, but it doesn't do anything. It's like the game telling you "This is gonna happen whether you want it or not." I can't say I've seen the same in other RPGs, or at least not to this degree, and I've played a lot of them.

I mean I can agree that the game does these things, though I’m not sure I’d agree that there’s anything *wrong* with it. I don’t really think that the player should always be able to prevent everything that might happen. For Baldur’s Gate and D&D in general, you have the stats to be able to roll and see these things coming and have rolls to resist, but Divinity didn’t really build itself that way. I suppose there could have been attribute checks for those kinds of things, but that would be an issue with the way you don’t always know what character will be talking in some cases and things like that which would just be more frustrating. Without the RNG of rolls, it also means that it would be entirely counterable unless the stat check was completely hidden.

I’m just not sure I see it as an issue like you do. There are as always a complaint players had where there’s no way to romance Red and have a happily ever after with him that doesn’t involve you posing as a slave back in his empire. But why should you have an option to steal away his empire, the very thing he was after all game? I don’t see his character being willing to give that up nor a reason that option should exist. The player shouldn’t always have control over everything. Some things should happen whether they want it or not. Giving players control over everything like that isn’t a good thing in my opinion. Always having that escape option or way to get what you want regardless of what the NPC would realistically want. But everyone has their opinion.

[Spawnling]

Originally posted by Dr.Corpse:

oh and shadow over driftwood with its but-thou-must party separation can eat a turd. its literally a big middle finger to the players face.

Teleportation Pyramids?
The game usually gives you the middle finger for not using what you have.

[Janthis]

I’m just not sure I see it as an issue like you do. There are as always a complaint players had where there’s no way to romance Red and have a happily ever after with him that doesn’t involve you posing as a slave back in his empire. But why should you have an option to steal away his empire, the very thing he was after all game? I don’t see his character being willing to give that up nor a reason that option should exist. The player shouldn’t always have control over everything. Some things should happen whether they want it or not. Giving players control over everything like that isn’t a good thing in my opinion. Always having that escape option or way to get what you want regardless of what the NPC would realistically want. But everyone has their opinion.

It's a bit of a fine line I agree, but it's not so much not having control over big events or outcomes, but rather the game taking control away from you on a close personal level. Things like NPCs doing things to your character where you have no option to refuse or resist, even when you are not physically restrained. It's probably the writing too, and compounded by the fact that so many characters are rude and obnoxious towards you for no reason (in act 2, between Malady, Meistr Siva and the magisters, I started to wonder why I'm even trying to save this world...)