Rogues are ridiculously underpowered?

[As}{tray]

I've just finished Act 1 and am trying to build a rogue Sybilla; almoust full finesse, scoundrel/dual daggers.

The thing is, though she basically owned enemies with backstabs at first, she swiftly became lacking damage at lvl8. My friend playing warrior currently just massacares enemies for ~120 dmg per hit with two-handed weapon under Enrage; while Sybilla has to position herself to backstab them and still gets laughable ~60.
I'd say the problem is that her daggers have 12-13dmg, while my friend's axe got 24-25. Even 170% critical multiplier on daggers is not enough with such low numbers.

So, are rogues just weak (nerfed or smth), or maybe it gets better again later? Or am I doing something wrong? Need a different weapon/build etc etc?

[desrtfox071]

What level are your weapons? I have found that, unlike most other RPGs, you should trade out your weapons much more often and don't hang on to those "epic" weapons for some special ability (unless it is truly special) and just upgrade your weapons primarily based on the primary damage stat. It can make a huge difference. Armor upgrades should be similarly often in my opinion.

[Burdpal]

You scale better damage with Warfare. Willing to best this is the main reason why your Warrior pal is overperforming.

Spec points in Scoundrel only to unlock skills, for early game. Get 10 Warfare next.

[desrtfox071]

Originally posted by Burd!:

You scale better damage with Warfare. Willing to best this is the main reason why your Warrior pal is overperforming.

Spec points in Scoundrel only to unlock skills, for early game. Get 10 Warfare next.

Yes. This is an excellent point.

[Razorblade]

Anyone who is dealing physical damage should try to max out their damage stat (finesse for you) and Warfare (for 5% extra damage per level) first thing. You should also keep your weapons as close to your level as possible. Generally speaking, your legendary level 4 dagger is much less useful than a level 8 homemade shiv, no matter how many stat boosts the legendary dagger gives. Ultimately, 2 handed is an objectively better build, if built correctly, but the power gap between a well-built rogue and a well-built warrior should not be substantial.

[Conner]

honestly get some good daggers for sybille, by the end of the game she was my main dps and I didnt really put points into her warfare, but I buffed out her scoundrel skills. Finesse would also be good to buff as well as I have noticed.

[ℳɑℵƐɳƮɨɳʊᎦ]

Rogues are perhaps the 3rd most damaging and powerful build in the game behind only high level necromancers and rangers. the lack of damage is most likely either because your equipment is severely under-leveled or because of a flaw with the character build.

[As}{tray]

Originally posted by desrtfox071:

What level are your weapons?

Both daggers are Lvl8 as well; one epic, one unique.

Originally posted by Burd!:

Spec points in Scoundrel only to unlock skills, for early game. Get 10 Warfare next.

Well thanks, I guess I'll give it a try. I didn't think that pure damage matters more than crit multiplier.


I also noticed that though she backstabs with both of her weapons, only first of them deals crit. Was that intended? 'Cause it seems kinda strange.

[Godwoken Dovahkiin]

You're building it wrong. First you gotta learn how to use Chicken Claw + Rupture Tendons, second I suggest maxing out Scoundrel first and get The Pawn for easier positioning for backstabs, max Warfare second, get Opportunist also. At some point in the game you should get Glass Cannon and use chameleon cloak/uncanny evasion at the end of your turn. You can pretty much OHKO people with 6 AP. Don't go for high physical armor enemies, go for the mages and archers. I've done this easily with a human, with elf it should be 100 times better.

Later on learn how to math and use Corrupt Blade + Mortal Blow. Rogue is not only damage but a debuffer as well with Silence, Atrophy, Sleep and Fear.

[Conner]

Originally posted by Godwoken Dovahkiin:

You're building it wrong. First you gotta learn how to use Chicken Claw + Rupture Tendons, second I suggest maxing out Scoundrel first and get The Pawn for easier positioning for backstabs, max Warfare second, get Opportunist also. At some point in the game you should get Glass Cannon and use chameleon cloak/uncanny evasion at the end of your turn. You can pretty much OHKO people with 6 AP. Don't go for high physical armor enemies, go for the mages and archers. I've done this easily with a human, with elf it should be 100 times better.

Later on learn how to math and use Corrupt Blade + Mortal Blow. Rogue is not only damage but a debuffer as well with Silence, Atrophy, Sleep and Fear.

This guy knows whats up

[Chaoslink]

As mentioned, Warfare is your "main" skill. Invest that more than anything else. The 5% bonus isn't the same as what you get from Dual wielding or a point in Finesse. Those 5% values are applied to just the base weapon damage of your equipped weapons. The Warfare 5% is instead applied AFTER those other bonuses are applied, effectively boosting your finesse by 5% per point as well as the base damage. This leads to the most overall scaling and boost all damage higher than any other point investment. You'll also benefit from using the various knockdown spells that Warfare offers as well as getting Phoenix Dive at level 9. The Pawn can help you maneuver into backstab range, but you can also rely on Backlash, Cloak and Dagger and the above mentioned Phoenix Dive (as well as Tactical Retreat in Huntsman if you get points for it). These are all 1 AP abilities that allow you to reposition behind targets (if you target behind them) without triggering attacks of opportunity.

Your second weapon "not triggering criticals" is actually just the normal offhand deals 50% less damage thing. Always make sure your main hand weapon is the harder hitting weapon.

[Nights]

every class is overpowered, with a but. You have to build them right first and second they all scale through the game at different rates and therefore have power spike at different times. In act one there are busted af unique weapons for 2h fighter and ranger which give them much greater damage than classes that dont get those weapons for instance.

[Error]

try scoundrel max, warfare 2 (for teleport and ram), dual wield approach max, finesse 5 : wits 1
must have the pawn talent

realised most people overlook dual wield

[Qiox]

Originally posted by Error:

try scoundrel max, warfare 2 (for teleport and ram), dual wield approach max, finesse 5 : wits 1
must have the pawn talent

realised most people overlook dual wield

Dual Wield 5% damage is less than the 5% damage you get from Warfare. Maxing Dual Wield and leaving Warfare at 2 is a big damage loss.

[Error]

Originally posted by Qiox:

Originally posted by Error:

try scoundrel max, warfare 2 (for teleport and ram), dual wield approach max, finesse 5 : wits 1
must have the pawn talent

realised most people overlook dual wield

Dual Wield 5% damage is less than the 5% damage you get from Warfare. Maxing Dual Wield and leaving Warfare at 2 is a big damage loss.

so... 5% << 5%? care to elaborate the differences in the gains from warfare and dual wield?

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Error:

realised most people overlook dual wield

No one is overlooking it, they're just passing over an inferior skill. All weapon skills are inferior to Warfare. The 5% value isn't the same. Warfare's acts similarly to the magic skills like Pyro or Aero, letting Intelligence scale a base spell damage first, then affecting that value with the skill's. Warfare works the same for Physical damage. Attributes and weapon skills are added into one larger %, then applied to the base weapon damage. Then you apply the Warfare value, effectively boosting both the base damage as well as the attribute/skill bonuses. This always leads to a higher damage output.

For example...

Lets say you have a weapon that deals exactly 100 damage. You have 20 of the scaling attribute for said weapon, meaning you have a 100% damage boost. You also have 10 in the weapon skill giving you a 50% additional boost. The game would then add those two together for a 150% boost, making your final hit deal 250 damage. If you trade the weapon skill for Warfare however, you'd first calculate the attribute boost with the weapon damage, getting 200 damage. Then you'd apply the 50% from Warfare to that value making your final damage be 300 rather than the 250 your weapon skill offered. That's a pretty significant jump... The extra stat from the weapon skill doesn't make up for the damage loss from not having Warfare. This is true for ALL physical builds, from warriors to archers and even Necromages. Warfare is king for all physical based damage.