Why use pyromancy over the other elemental spells?

[Cruel2BEkind]

Just wondering why people would use pyromancy over the other spells. Given that you can freeze and stun people with aerotheurge and hydrosophist.

[Senki]

İlk olarak Chaoslink tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Senki tarafından gönderildi:

Do I really have to play an entire campaign with every mage and record it because you can't bother to play the game before arguing about classes you have no idea about? Blood storm can also be stacked to multiply the effect, each shot has a small aoe and it hits every enemy once(or more). How many times do I have to say this?

And the same holds true for all the other spells I listed, a vast majority of which all fit one class. A Geomage can pop that same combo 3-4 times before needing to reset cooldowns. Necro has it... once? Maybe twice if there's corpses? If you wanna talk source spam, Geo still has Necro beat. And Geo can even dip into Pyro if it needs for even more. Hell, it can include all the magic schools if it really wants. Popping Thunderstorm afterwards would be great to CC the corpses it leaves behind.

Alright I'm done, lmao. There's clearly no way to make you understand anything when you have no idea about the class in the first place. I'll leave you to your delusions.

And as I said before, geo is indeed as strong as necro or stronger in some fights. I never said necro is always the best, I only said it's not even close to the bottom(like you think it is), which is true.

[BigRockWall]

Just thought it worth pointing out, regardless of your build. If you want to use source skills regularly, but hate the micro and added time of getting your source back after every fight, one of the gift basket add ons lets your bedroll refill your source.

Whether or not you are bored by 1 shotting fights or not is up to u. But bedroll source is a thing

[Mastigos]

I think its time to take the gloves off a little, because all these assumptions about our competence is starting to get irritating.

1) The absolute most powerful AP to Source to damage spell, with no setup, is Deploy Mass Traps. Period. Under ideal conditions, Pyroclastic Eruption has the potential to deal more damage, but in the vast majority of situations (and with zero setup) Deploy Mass Traps is the apex of raw damage and efficiency. My God, with only the Necrofires +15% damage, I can hit over 13,000 AoE damage with DMT. Standing in fire (which is incredibly easy) its 2 AP, 1 Source.
I can promise you, promise you, that comparing min-max build to min-max build, Epidemic of Fire + DMT is going to outperform Blood Rain + Grasp in the majority of cases. And that's a grand total of 4 AP, 3 Source for both spells.

Basing this off (https://divinityoriginalsin2.wiki.fextralife.com)
Grasp is 250% physical damage, and Blood Storm is 100%
Total of 350% physical damage, not bad
Epidemic of Fire is 240% fire damage (before -15% necrofire debuff)
Mass Deploy Traps is 100% fire damage x 4 = 400% fire damage (before -15% debuff)

350% physical damage vs 640% fire damage (+15% of 640 = 96)
350% physical vs 736% fire
4 AP, 5 Source vs 4 AP, 3 Source (although fire elemental affinity is easier than necro)

How many times are you going to expect Blood Storm to hit each target?

This isn't even counting Meteor Storm, which with a +crit, +critdamage build melts & potentially heals everything in a large AoE. But I digress. Meteor Storm is best used against physically large targets anyway, its more niche than anything.

[Chaoslink]

İlk olarak Mastigos tarafından gönderildi:

I think its time to take the gloves off a little, because all these assumptions about our competence is starting to get irritating.

1) The absolute most powerful AP to Source to damage spell, with no setup, is Deploy Mass Traps. Period. Under ideal conditions, Pyroclastic Eruption has the potential to deal more damage, but in the vast majority of situations (and with zero setup) Deploy Mass Traps is the apex of raw damage and efficiency. My God, with only the Necrofires +15% damage, I can hit over 13,000 AoE damage with DMT. Standing in fire (which is incredibly easy) its 2 AP, 1 Source.
I can promise you, promise you, that comparing min-max build to min-max build, Epidemic of Fire + DMT is going to outperform Blood Rain + Grasp in the majority of cases. And that's a grand total of 4 AP, 3 Source for both spells.

Basing this off (https://divinityoriginalsin2.wiki.fextralife.com)
Grasp is 250% physical damage, and Blood Storm is 100%
Total of 350% physical damage, not bad
Epidemic of Fire is 240% fire damage (before -15% necrofire debuff)
Mass Deploy Traps is 100% fire damage x 4 = 400% fire damage (before -15% debuff)

350% physical damage vs 640% fire damage (+15% of 640 = 96)
350% physical vs 736% fire
4 AP, 5 Source vs 4 AP, 3 Source (although fire elemental affinity is easier than necro)

How many times are you going to expect Blood Storm to hit each target?

This isn't even couting Meteor Storm, which with a +crit, +critdamage build melts & potentially heals everything in a large AoE. But I digress. Meteor Storm is best used against physically large targets anyway, its more niche than anything.

And that’s typically why resistance (and physical’s lack of dealing with it) isn’t all that relevant. The numbers favor magic heavily and resistances balance that out. If you can nullify those resistances by any means, they’ll perform even better. The only time resistance really matters is when it’s 70% up to immunity. Anything lower( pretty much every fight in the game) and you can pretty safely ignore it and just blow your load. Note that in the above % comparison, even if you take half the fire damage away (target needs to have 65% fire resist) you’re still slightly above the physical damage. It’s only when resistances are even higher than that, again 65%, that they start to really matter. And that still assumes you’re not hitting in an area. That example here can be done single target.

Though I will point out that Blood elemental affinity is actually the easier of you build elf since it’s literally free.

[Mastigos]

#blowyourload

[Senki]

İlk olarak Mastigos tarafından gönderildi:

I think its time to take the gloves off a little, because all these assumptions about our competence is starting to get irritating.

1) The absolute most powerful AP to Source to damage spell, with no setup, is Deploy Mass Traps. Period. Under ideal conditions, Pyroclastic Eruption has the potential to deal more damage, but in the vast majority of situations (and with zero setup) Deploy Mass Traps is the apex of raw damage and efficiency. My God, with only the Necrofires +15% damage, I can hit over 13,000 AoE damage with DMT. Standing in fire (which is incredibly easy) its 2 AP, 1 Source.
I can promise you, promise you, that comparing min-max build to min-max build, Epidemic of Fire + DMT is going to outperform Blood Rain + Grasp in the majority of cases. And that's a grand total of 4 AP, 3 Source for both spells.

Basing this off (https://divinityoriginalsin2.wiki.fextralife.com)
Grasp is 250% physical damage, and Blood Storm is 100%
Total of 350% physical damage, not bad
Epidemic of Fire is 240% fire damage (before -15% necrofire debuff)
Mass Deploy Traps is 100% fire damage x 4 = 400% fire damage (before -15% debuff)

350% physical damage vs 640% fire damage (+15% of 640 = 96)
350% physical vs 736% fire
4 AP, 5 Source vs 4 AP, 3 Source (although fire elemental affinity is easier than necro)

How many times are you going to expect Blood Storm to hit each target?

This isn't even counting Meteor Storm, which with a +crit, +critdamage build melts & potentially heals everything in a large AoE. But I digress. Meteor Storm is best used against physically large targets anyway, its more niche than anything.

If there's anything I regret in life it's not recording my fights from the solo necromancer run.

Either way here's how it works: Apotheosis>blood storm>grasp>skin graft>grasp +2 adrenaline somewhere in the combo. Executioner will give you even more ap to help you finish off anything that is alive if there is anything left(90% of the time there won't be).There are 0 encounters in the game that can survive this, the only time an encounter isnt over is if there are too many enemies or if the enemy will resurrect next turn. The entirety of act 3 and 4(and some of the act 2 if you got lvl 16 before finishing it) is literally a 1 turn fight other than the exceptions mentioned. Act 2 is not too different either with teleport corpse explosion and grasp making most fights an instant win. In act 1 you can use hydro spells too since you will need hydro anyway for blood storm later so you might as well make use of it early on.

Elemental affinity is also the easiest to get out of all the mages if you play elf.

Knowing all this can you really say necromancer is the worst mage in the game?

No I don't want to hear ''necro is nothing without source'' either that is the dumbest argument anyone could ever make when comparing builds in this game.Source is infinite and the only time it isn't is when you don't want it to be.

The only time geo/pyro outclasses necromancer is in act 1 and the beginning of act 2. Even then necromancer is better in fire res fights so they are not better throughout the whole thing. Necromancer becomes significantly better than pyro afterwards and the only thing that can come close is geo's pyroclastic eruption.

DMT or any other ability dealing overkill levels of damage is literally insignificant when the enemies themselves don't have enough hp/armor for it to matter and they die from necro in 1 turn anyway.

EDIT: forgot to mention that you can also have multiple blood storms going off at once while being invisibile but that's more of a for fun thing. Still extremely strong tho.

[Mastigos]

Could you please point out where I said "Necro is the worst mage in the game." No? Maybe because I never said that, and wouldn't say that.

Anyway.

Apotheosis --> Epidemic of Fire --> DMT is enough to KO like 80% of the mobs in the game, and severely damage most bosses. And that is the most barebones of strategies.

Apotheosis into Adrenaline into Epidemic of Fire --> DMT (Executioner +2 AP) --> Shed Skin --> Adrenaline --> DMT is enough to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ pretty much anything. This is ignoring 1AP spells like Summon Slug (a free Flame Ray).

I mean Blood Storm + 2x Grasp is 600% physical damage
Epidemic + 2x DMT is 240 + 800 (+15%) = 1196 = ~1,200% fire damage (not counting subsequent burn damage and flaming ground damage

That's literally double damage.

Even with 65% resistance (which translates to 50% resistance after necrofire) you're still dealing comparable damage. And you can tack on +20% damage after magic armor has been exhausted, so its very likely that this is lowballing the fire damage.

This is an attempt to show you, using straight math, that if you give other builds the same degree of nuance as you do necro (i.e. adrenaline rush, shed skin, executioner, etc) that you can deal at minimum the same damage as necro, if not more. Your claim that necro outclasses pyro/geo is mostly false, and only proves true when the targets have extreme resistance (65% +). And that's only before magic armor is removed!

I mean dude, I understand you like Necro. And I understand you like Aero/Hydro. But just because Necro, in general, outperforms Aero/Hydro it does not mean it outperforms Pyro/Geo. I know that you'd prefer that to be the case, as it is logical to assume Pyro/Geo clock in low on your preference meter, but unfortunately for your bias the math proves otherwise.

Not to mention just doing a serious playthrough as Pyro/Geo will also prove the same.

DMT or any other ability dealing overkill levels of damage is literally insignificant when the enemies themselves don't have enough hp/armor for it to matter

Its not insignificant when you're in an actually challenging fight, though -- in which case it comes in clutch. I don't understand the argument that attempts to undermine exceptional levels of power as "insignificant" yet harp on the virtues of power when talking about Grasp of the Starved or Blood Storm. It is the definition of a double standard.

[Senki]

İlk olarak Mastigos tarafından gönderildi:

Could you please point out where I said "Necro is the worst mage in the game." No? Maybe because I never said that, and wouldn't say that.

Anyway.

Apotheosis --> Epidemic of Fire --> DMT is enough to KO like 80% of the mobs in the game, and severely damage most bosses. And that is the most barebones of strategies.

Apotheosis into Adrenaline into Epidemic of Fire --> DMT (Executioner +2 AP) --> Shed Skin --> Adrenaline --> DMT is enough to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ pretty much anything. This is ignoring 1AP spells like Summon Slug (a free Flame Ray).

I mean Blood Storm + 2x Grasp is 600% physical damage
Epidemic + 2x DMT is 240 + 800 = 1196 = ~1,200% fire damage (not counting subsequent burn damage and flaming ground damage

That's literally double damage.

Even with 65% resistance (which translates to 50% resistance after necrofire) you're still dealing comparable damage. And you can tack on +20% damage after magic armor has been exhausted, so its very likely that this is lowballing the fire damage.

This is an attempt to show you, using straight math, that if you give other builds the same degree of nuance as you do necro (i.e. adrenaline rush, shed skin, executioner, etc) that you can deal at minimum the same damage as necro, if not more. Your claim that necro outclasses pyro/geo is mostly false, and only proves true when the targets have extreme resistance (65% +). And that's only before magic armor is removed!

I mean dude, I understand you like Necro. And I understand you like Aero/Hydro. But just because Necro, in general, outperforms Aero/Hydro it does not mean it outperforms Pyro/Geo. I know that you'd prefer that to be the case, as it is logical to assume Pyro/Geo clock in low on your preference meter, but unfortunately for your bias the math proves otherwise.

Not to mention just doing a serious playthrough as Pyro/Geo will also prove the same.

Preference has nothing to do with me saying necro is better and pyro or geo. It's literally just me playing the game and seeing necro instakill fights as easy or easier than pyro.But on top of that they also don't ever need to worry about resistances.

I legit couldn't care less about you looking on the wiki comparing damage percentages when I played the game myself and saw necro wipe entire acts with ease.

They're at worst equal in power.Both of them being able to kill most fights in a single turn. And again, enemies don't have enough hp for your math to matter after a certain point(after act 2 both of them instakill enemies). There could be a spell that deals 800000000000% dmg and comparing it to act 4 necro they would still be equal because the enemies still die.

[Mastigos]

Okay, you do you, but most people are going to prefer innately unbiased math to your experience. (As should you, but that's another matter.)

I just showed that against a 0 resistance target, Pyro ends up doing literally double the damage that Necro does. Against a target with moderate resistance (20-30%) Pyro is going to be about 20-30% more effective (before considering attached conditions like cripple, or necrofire damage). At a whopping 61-63% fire resist, they finally deal approximately equal damage -- and that is with magic armor. Without magic armor and 1 AP later, the gap is once again +20% in favor of fire.

So it seems, mathematically, that Necro is hard-pressed to equal the power or efficiency of Pyro -- and this is ignoring Geo synergies and DoT stacking.

Necro has a slew of powerful supporting abilities, so I don't know why you think it SHOULD be equal to, or greater, than the school of magic focused on damage. It just doesn't compute.

In any case, anyone who wants straight up math can find out the percentages and do the arithmatic themselves. The results are obvious.

You can keep leaning on your own experience and understanding, that's fine, you're hardly hurting anyone (except maybe yourself). The rest of us can just do math, or start up a new game, or load a save file with high-end lone wolf Pyro mages, and test the results.

But I will say this one last thing. Suggesting that extreme levels of damage doesn't matter because trash mobs die to less isn't a strong argument. Tactician may be easy to some of us, but there are still a number of challenging fights in Tactician -- and the general level of power of a build is based upon the most challenging fights in the game, NOT against the run-of-the-mill, trash mob fights. So saying build X, build Y, and build Z all OHKO trash mobs doesn't mean they're all equal, because equal means "performs equally well in the most strenuous conditions" not "performs equally well in common fights against trash."

[Senki]

Ok I guess i'll have to start a whole damn playthrough to show you what I mean.

Gonna take a while but don't worry, i'll show you how much your math matters.

[Mastigos]

I'm sure "my" system of mathematics is shaking in its boots.

[Senki]

İlk olarak Mastigos tarafından gönderildi:

I'm sure "my" system of mathematics is shaking in its boots.

Can't do math only for some parts of the game to prove something while ignoring the enemies :). I'm sure gonna love to see how you're gonna explain how my necromancer deleting a whole encounter is weaker than pyro deleting a whole encounter.

[Mastigos]

You're oscillating between "Necro does more damage than Pyro" and "Damage doesn't matter because both OKHO everything post-Act 2."

Neither are true in all but the most extreme cases.

I've proven that, in the vast majority of cases, Pyro Source ability spam does more damage than Necro Source spam. And in the fights that are actually challenging, that matters. (And outside Source ability spam, Pyro runs circles around Necro, but I digress.)

After all, what makes a fight difficult? Generally speaking, a boss is difficult because of a combination of high damage output, combined with the ability to negate/absorb/resist/tank a lot of damage. Therefore, the more damage you can deal (and the most consistently you can deal the damage!) the easier time you'll have killing the boss. Now all that is left is surviving yourself -- which is why I prefer the build that turns Pyro damage into healing and armor (therefore killing two birds with one stone). You'll have a harder time with Necro than Pyro until resistances go through the roof. That's not guesswork, that's math.

At this point, sounding like a broken record is probably damaging my legitimacy, so I'll leave it at that.

[Senki]

There are no challenging fights for a necromancer past act 2. Yes even bosses get obliterated. You would know that if you actually played the game. Don't worry I'll play it for you.

[Godwoken Dovahkiin]

The fight is on you guys! Time to set up the songs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhlPAj38rHc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-LO6dctBms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK4gv11PTI8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-3Yok5D3Aw