Good summons apart from the incarnate?

[Bullett00th]

Our party has one dedicated Incarnate summoner, and I have a magic support character whom I also decided to have some summoning on as a secondary.

Would like to diversify, which summons do you think are good apart from the Incarnate?

[/Uninstall]

They all rely on summoning skill, and the incarnate is the best. If playing vanilla without summon mods. Its the most versatile, and the only one that can take infusions. Other summons only really useful when the incarnate dies (or gets superchargered) and is still on CD.

The geo artillery plant summon would be my pick for a 2nd summon to use. Either as backup or if you just want some diversity. Fire slug can be amusing too

[Chaoslink]

None. Even the incarnate isn't worth the AP without fully investing into summoning. The bone widow might be the only thing most people use frequently as its the only other one that doesn't cost source to summon. However, summoning itself is the weakest skill the game offers after level 12 or so and doesn't really hold up if you're not heavily invested into it. You're probably best off trying to use totems to apply small amounts of damage and possibly CC through electric totems where possible. Depending on your team as a whole, there's probably a better skill you can invest, though 3 points in summoning for soul mate is still an excellent investment for a support.

[/Uninstall]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

None. Even the incarnate isn't worth the AP without fully investing into summoning. The bone widow might be the only thing most people use frequently as its the only other one that doesn't cost source to summon. However, summoning itself is the weakest skill the game offers after level 12 or so and doesn't really hold up if you're not heavily invested into it. You're probably best off trying to use totems to apply small amounts of damage and possibly CC through electric totems where possible. Depending on your team as a whole, there's probably a better skill you can invest, though 3 points in summoning for soul mate is still an excellent investment for a support.

As long as you maintain 10 summoning via whatever combo of skill points and gear you have, summining never stops being good. Minor excpetion to mid game onwards lone wolf builds as they can kill so fast incarnates just add more time to every encounter from the extra turns taken.

But in 3-4 man groups they are always good. The damage output of the summon itself is not on par with a fully damage specced archer, no doubt. That doesn't mean they do negligible damage tho. And the disposable tank is always welcome. Also, for casters, totems provide an additional 2ap nuke when their skills are on cooldown. They also offer flexibility on targeting physical or magic damage depending on encounter need. Also, as summon requires no primary stat, it can go with any build. The difference usually comes down to 10 ranks of summoning or 10 ranks of ranged/two handed. Weapon skill is like 50% more damage and some crit chance or multiplier, vs summon which is arguably roughly equal to the same total damage output as the weapon skill.

Yes, skipping summoner will net you more personal damage always. No, its never useless

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

None. Even the incarnate isn't worth the AP without fully investing into summoning. The bone widow might be the only thing most people use frequently as its the only other one that doesn't cost source to summon. However, summoning itself is the weakest skill the game offers after level 12 or so and doesn't really hold up if you're not heavily invested into it. You're probably best off trying to use totems to apply small amounts of damage and possibly CC through electric totems where possible. Depending on your team as a whole, there's probably a better skill you can invest, though 3 points in summoning for soul mate is still an excellent investment for a support.

As long as you maintain 10 summoning via whatever combo of skill points and gear you have, summining never stops being good. Minor excpetion to mid game onwards lone wolf builds as they can kill so fast incarnates just add more time to every encounter from the extra turns taken.

But in 3-4 man groups they are always good. The damage output of the summon itself is not on par with a fully damage specced archer, no doubt. That doesn't mean they do negligible damage tho. And the disposable tank is always welcome. Also, for casters, totems provide an additional 2ap nuke when their skills are on cooldown. They also offer flexibility on targeting physical or magic damage depending on encounter need. Also, as summon requires no primary stat, it can go with any build. The difference usually comes down to 10 ranks of summoning or 10 ranks of ranged/two handed. Weapon skill is like 50% more damage and some crit chance or multiplier, vs summon which is arguably roughly equal to the same total damage output as the weapon skill.

Yes, skipping summoner will net you more personal damage always. No, its never useless

Kinda, but needing something to tank isn't really that helpful if you're positioning well and the damage from the incarnate (the versatility part) isn't all that great either as almost all damage from the incarnate is physical based attacks (even when it deals magic damage) meaning that you have both dodge AND resistance to consider. Incarnates and other summons also lack mobility so they're not great at being AP efficient, nor do they benefit from talents. How you consider a totem a "nuke" I dunno either as their damage isn't great and post act one, casters should never be on cooldown fully.

As for the damage from ranged or whatever versus summoning, the main difference is damage on the AP you're already using or investing memory and AP into something you're not using. AP spent summoning is AP the majority of your stats aren't affecting. Its the same idea as a STR/INT battlemage. Using half your stats per AP. If you're looking to get the most out of your builds, summoning isn't worth it as a side focus.

[Pyromus]

Assuming "magic support" means you have a few points into all magic abilities, there's a fun "summon" combo I like using.

Corpse explosion > Raise Bloated Corpse > Super Charger > Flaming Crescendo

Each skill there only costs 1AP and you get a massive physical damage bomb followed by a massive physical and fire combo bomb. If a corpse isn't in the right spot for it, adrenaline and teleport can fix the issue.

I realize the bloated corpse isn't a summoned entity that people use often for an actual pet type creature, and this may not fit your question perfectly. But it's still fun. As others have said, non incarnate summons aren't all that great, so I went with something fun.

[/Uninstall]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

As long as you maintain 10 summoning via whatever combo of skill points and gear you have, summining never stops being good. Minor excpetion to mid game onwards lone wolf builds as they can kill so fast incarnates just add more time to every encounter from the extra turns taken.

But in 3-4 man groups they are always good. The damage output of the summon itself is not on par with a fully damage specced archer, no doubt. That doesn't mean they do negligible damage tho. And the disposable tank is always welcome. Also, for casters, totems provide an additional 2ap nuke when their skills are on cooldown. They also offer flexibility on targeting physical or magic damage depending on encounter need. Also, as summon requires no primary stat, it can go with any build. The difference usually comes down to 10 ranks of summoning or 10 ranks of ranged/two handed. Weapon skill is like 50% more damage and some crit chance or multiplier, vs summon which is arguably roughly equal to the same total damage output as the weapon skill.

Yes, skipping summoner will net you more personal damage always. No, its never useless

Kinda, but needing something to tank isn't really that helpful if you're positioning well and the damage from the incarnate (the versatility part) isn't all that great either as almost all damage from the incarnate is physical based attacks (even when it deals magic damage) meaning that you have both dodge AND resistance to consider. Incarnates and other summons also lack mobility so they're not great at being AP efficient, nor do they benefit from talents. How you consider a totem a "nuke" I dunno either as their damage isn't great and post act one, casters should never be on cooldown fully.

As for the damage from ranged or whatever versus summoning, the main difference is damage on the AP you're already using or investing memory and AP into something you're not using. AP spent summoning is AP the majority of your stats aren't affecting. Its the same idea as a STR/INT battlemage. Using half your stats per AP. If you're looking to get the most out of your builds, summoning isn't worth it as a side focus.

By that logic staff melee builds are bad too, as they reauire both a hit chance and are affected by resistances. And thats just not the case. The versatility is about matching whatever type of armor or resistance you want to target. I dont think I've ever seen my incarnate miss unless the target had uncanny evasion up. They get 1-2 ranged attacks, battering ram and whirlwind. Their own ap economy is fine.

If you summon and infuse before fight starts theres just the 2ap per turn from totems required by summoning throughoutmost fights. And you don't have to use one every turn but its a tool in the box that both damages and can add cc that is always off cooldown. Damage is on par with a typical 2ap single target damage spell early and early mid game. And can get close in the mid+ game on if you run poison aura. Especially if they survive to take 3 shots. And even if they don't, decent chance you traded 2ap to nullify an enemy spending 2ap to kill the totem, and dealt a little damage in the process. Thats like in magic the gathering if counterspell also dealt 1 point of damage

To be clear, I'm not advocating for summon splash, unless you want soul mate and dominate mind for a non summon using build. 10 ranks required to be relevant.

[Bullett00th]

Originally posted by Pyromus:

Assuming "magic support" means you have a few points into all magic abilities, there's a fun "summon" combo I like using.

Corpse explosion > Raise Bloated Corpse > Super Charger > Flaming Crescendo

Each skill there only costs 1AP and you get a massive physical damage bomb followed by a massive physical and fire combo bomb. If a corpse isn't in the right spot for it, adrenaline and teleport can fix the issue.

This sounds amazing, I will definitely try that thank you!

[Wyrlish]

Best summon in the game is a friend, Just call them and have them pyramid in. BAM most powerful summons ever, and you don't have to control them either.

[/Uninstall]

Originally posted by Wyrlish:

Best summon in the game is a friend, Just call them and have them pyramid in. BAM most powerful summons ever, and you don't have to control them either. :snaggletooth:

Definitely. Unless your party is already full

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

By that logic staff melee builds are bad too, as they reauire both a hit chance and are affected by resistances. And thats just not the case.

Actually, it is. Bear in mind that I’m not saying these builds aren’t viable, but comparatively speaking, they’re quite weak compared to most other options. After level 10-12, literally any given build starts to become more powerful than a summoner. A battlemage continues to get stronger, but no matter how you build them, after a certain point focusing on using the staff is going to cause the build to perform worse than a standard mage will.

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

The versatility is about matching whatever type of armor or resistance you want to target. I dont think I've ever seen my incarnate miss unless the target had uncanny evasion up. They get 1-2 ranged attacks, battering ram and whirlwind. Their own ap economy is fine.

Thing is, they are the worst AP efficient units you’ll have on your team. They can’t lower AP costs, can’t get any good mobility spells, have to default to melee which requires closing the gap which they lack the spells to do and can’t get access to talents like executioner or the pawn to aid in their AP economy. Even full melee builds have more tools to get better AP economy and melee builds as a whole suffer from poor AP economy compared to ranged.

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

If you summon and infuse before fight starts theres just the 2ap per turn from totems required by summoning throughoutmost fights. And you don't have to use one every turn but its a tool in the box that both damages and can add cc that is always off cooldown. Damage is on par with a typical 2ap single target damage spell early and early mid game. And can get close in the mid+ game on if you run poison aura. Especially if they survive to take 3 shots. And even if they don't, decent chance you traded 2ap to nullify an enemy spending 2ap to kill the totem, and dealt a little damage in the process. Thats like in magic the gathering if counterspell also dealt 1 point of damage

To be clear, I'm not advocating for summon splash, unless you want soul mate and dominate mind for a non summon using build. 10 ranks required to be relevant.

I don’t always consider pre-summoning as relevant since, even though it can be very effective, it still comes with drawbacks in turn order or start position. You also need to be an experienced player to know where the fights take place else you risk not being able to. It’s definitely a viable way to make summoners perform better, but it’s universally applicable.

Also, I think you’re wildly overestimating the performance of totems. They can be a good distraction and under very specific circumstances can apply CC, but their damage per AP is low unless they’re up for the full duration and damage later in fights isn’t as important as damage early on. I generally follow a rule where every turn after the first you consider your damage to drop by 20% per turn. The longer it takes for your damage to come out, the more chances you give the enemy to attack you and the longer it takes to CC them. Summoning as a whole doesn’t have the tools to do this compared to other builds.

Again, not saying it isn’t a viable build. But if you were to list them all in order of strongest to weakest, a summoner falls in the bottom 25%. They’re still functional builds. They just don’t compare to others in the long run.

[Godwoken Dovahkiin]

Every summon is good tbh except maybe oil blob.

Bone Widow does a lot of damage even without points into summoning, buffs itself and can teleport.

Royal Slug does decent damage even without any points into summon so imagine how much it would do maxed.

Bloated Corpse does amazing damage with supercharger.

Wind Up Toy is a more expensive Bloated corpse, don't think it's worth it but hey magic damage bloated corpse.

Hungry Flower should do good damage, acid spore at a 1 SP discount and 2 turn cooldown, poison wave 1 turn cooldown too. (If the wiki is correct, have not used this summon much).

Incarnate just has too much versatility compared to the others.

[/Uninstall]

@chaoslink, on phone formatting quotes hard.

If you consider the incarnate as a party member, it absolutely falls short in ap efficiency compared to a normal character. The ranged attack does same damage as melee. So were really just talking about the last 2 ap. Over 3 turns you get battering ram, whirlwind, and a ranged spell that depends on the ele infusion. Ap economy is fine for what the incarnate does.

If the totem dies to aoe that also hit a party member on its first turn, yep. Likely a waste of 2ap. If it takes a 2nd shot it pays for itself compared to just shooting wands. And if it dies to an attack that targets nothing else, you profit, regardless of turn number. Even if it dies its first turn, and the enemy only spent 1ap to destroy it, the damage it dealt then1 shot it took was worth the other 1 ap. If you can maintain 3 of them via proper placement and party blah blah blah, they can be worth it.

I see your point about later fight damage being less weighted than early fight damage. However, dots require time to work, totems are effectively dots with a hp bar.

On staves. Going all in on melee staves (say 10 pyro 10 2hand) won't be as viable late game as a ranged caster. But you can certainly add it to the build and make it perfectly viable. Fire staff with sparkstriker (and a summoner in the group to double the efficiency of master of sparks) and like 2 warfare skills is all you need to make melee staff quite an effective part of the overall build. Sparks aren't up the whole fight after all.

If you wanna min max a full ranged party go for it. If you wanna use everything the game provides, also go for it. Just about everything is viable as long as you build properly. Summons are not OP game breakers, but they work just fine and can be extremely useful to a variety of party conpositions

@OP that said, all the summons have their uses, the incarnate is IMO the best one on the whole

[Bullett00th]

Just to be specific, since you all keep pointing out that Incarnate is the best: I know)

We had one playthrough with a dedicated summoner/support that spent most of his points on summoning and buffing the hell out of the incarnate and the party. Been useful throughout.

In this playthrough we also have a dedicated summoner with the Incarnate.
The Summoning I have is used on my utility mage for Dominate Mind and Soul mate, but I figured why not have another summon for the heck of it, and I don't want another Incarnate, that's boring.

Started with Bone Widow because I have necro anyway.

[Pyromus]

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

@chaoslink

All your arguments are just saying summoning is playable/can beat the game. Chaoslink never said otherwise. What they said was that summoning, compared to other builds, is weaker. Same with staves, where you even say using the staff on purpose would be weaker than just casting.

No standard build in the game is unplayable or unable to beat the game. The argument against summoning is just that after a certain point, it is undeniably the weakest skill to focus on. Not that it can't succeed, not that it can't be in a party and still beat the game, not that it can't be fun or enjoyable, not that it will cause you to sell your soul while also going bankrupt and causing a real world nuclear war. It's just weaker than the other options in the game.

[/Uninstall]

Originally posted by Pyromus:

Originally posted by BigRockWall:

@chaoslink

Same with staves, where you even say using the staff on purpose would be weaker than just casting.

No, I said JUST using staves is weaker than just casting. I also said that using a staff as part of a pyro build that uses master of sparks along with an incarnate (or without), or with other melees is a great way to add aoe damage from what would otherwise be a waste of AP that you could have spent on a nuke. To be clear, im not saying summoner with staff and pyro (tho can be done).

Yeah, lots of stuff works. Yeah, there are better and worse skill lines. I may be over selling summoner, but its my opinion that chaoslink is under selling it. No disrespect intended. It's a versatile skill set that borders on OP early game, and while weaker than others late game from a raw damage perspective when focusing only on the summon skill line, it adds versatility and a number of disposable HP sponges. And being stat reliance free, a summoner is free to pursue whatever role in the group they want, as long as the desired role isn't top tier DPS

Just like how pure support caster is not weak because it does less damage than a character specced to only deal damage