Are nuke spells worthless without Savage Sortilege - especially on a non-Int. characters?

[Lampros]

I am dabbling in nukes with my Physical damage characters, and the damage is just pathetic. Since I do not want to dilute Physical damage by investing in Intelligence, should I get Savage Sortilege? Or should I just give up using nukes with Physical damage characters?

[Chaoslink]

If you’re not invested into int, magic is worthless to you. Have your mages do that stuff. If you have no mages, your team is suffering from a critical and common flaw that people have come to believe is best. While harder to pull off successfully, mixed parties are indeed stronger than a focused party and you’re better off with both physical and magic damage dealers in your party. The only reason a stacked team feels so strong is because it’s simple enough that you’ll struggle to do it wrong.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

If you’re not invested into int, magic is worthless to you. Have your mages do that stuff. If you have no mages, your team is suffering from a critical and common flaw that people have come to believe is best. While harder to pull off successfully, mixed parties are indeed stronger than a focused party and you’re better off with both physical and magic damage dealers in your party. The only reason a stacked team feels so strong is because it’s simple enough that you’ll struggle to do it wrong.

For this run, I have no mages - other than the 1H/shield tank/support guy who has about 5 Hydrosophy and a bit of other things. Should I consider adding maybe a few Intelligence and Savage Sortilege on him then? He's already got over 50 percent crit at level 16 at the moment.

And how much Intelligence and Hydrosophy does he need to make a decent hybrid damage dealer?

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Lampros:

And how much Intelligence and Hydrosophy does he need to make a decent hybrid damage dealer?

More than you can manage without lone wolf. You simply can't stack one without harming the other. The only physical damage dealers that make good hybrids are archers and dual dagger rogues. Archers simply use elemental arrows to support their mages. Rogues stack daggers with a rune slot and innate element damage with a framed thunder rune (gives Finesse) and poison (or shock from eternal artifact) as well as abilities like poison coating or the similar flame spell that adds elemental damage to melee. All these effects can get their magic damage about equal to the physical damage on those daggers, allowing them to strip both armor types at once. This works best on rogues I've noticed simply because both damage types stack quite well with crit from backstabs. While other melee can use the same methods, I generally found the magic damage dealt to be a weaker ratio to physical than on rogues.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by Lampros:

And how much Intelligence and Hydrosophy does he need to make a decent hybrid damage dealer?

More than you can manage without lone wolf. You simply can't stack one without harming the other. The only physical damage dealers that make good hybrids are archers and dual dagger rogues. Archers simply use elemental arrows to support their mages. Rogues stack daggers with a rune slot and innate element damage with a framed thunder rune (gives Finesse) and poison (or shock from eternal artifact) as well as abilities like poison coating or the similar flame spell that adds elemental damage to melee. All these effects can get their magic damage about equal to the physical damage on those daggers, allowing them to strip both armor types at once. This works best on rogues I've noticed simply because both damage types stack quite well with crit from backstabs. While other melee can use the same methods, I generally found the magic damage dealt to be a weaker ratio to physical than on rogues.

I did a lot of experimenting tonight, and you seem to be right. Every spell does pitiful damage. The sole exception I found was Ice Breaker, but that has a huge AoE radius AND does friendly fire. So I don't think it's all that usable.

Is there anything like Ice Breaker that does not require huge Intelligence investment but also does not have such a massive drawback like Ice Breaker?

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Rogues stack daggers with a rune slot and innate element damage with a framed thunder rune (gives Finesse) and poison (or shock from eternal artifact) as well as abilities like poison coating or the similar flame spell that adds elemental damage to melee. All these effects can get their magic damage about equal to the physical damage on those daggers, allowing them to strip both armor types at once. This works best on rogues I've noticed simply because both damage types stack quite well with crit from backstabs. While other melee can use the same methods, I generally found the magic damage dealt to be a weaker ratio to physical than on rogues.

On the rogue stacking elemental damage idea: The only concern I have here is that stacking stuff like poison on your weapon may backfire if you fight immunes such as Undead. Am I not going to be constantly healing them in fact? Or are there no enemies with over 100 percent resist?

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Rogues stack daggers with a rune slot and innate element damage with a framed thunder rune (gives Finesse) and poison (or shock from eternal artifact) as well as abilities like poison coating or the similar flame spell that adds elemental damage to melee. All these effects can get their magic damage about equal to the physical damage on those daggers, allowing them to strip both armor types at once. This works best on rogues I've noticed simply because both damage types stack quite well with crit from backstabs. While other melee can use the same methods, I generally found the magic damage dealt to be a weaker ratio to physical than on rogues.

On the rogue stacking elemental damage idea: The only concern I have here is that stacking stuff like poison on your weapon may backfire if you fight immunes such as Undead. Am I not going to be constantly healing them in fact? Or are there no enemies with over 100 percent resist?

While it does offer them healing, keep in mind that this type of build is used in support of mages so that your physical character can strip magic armor as well. Unless you dealth piercing damage, there is nothing to heal and therefore the poison damage simply isn't damaging their magic armor. This can be totally avoided using the eternal artifact to "poison" the weapon with shock damage, using a dagger whose innate elemental damage isn't poison and using a non-poison rune. Overall, the only poison damage in there is just the weapon coating and by using the firebrand instead of poison coating spell, the amount of healing they recieve isn't significant compared to the damage dealt. Its still a net gain for you, especially given that you are stripping both armor types to openthe target to all party members at little extra cost.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by Lampros:

On the rogue stacking elemental damage idea: The only concern I have here is that stacking stuff like poison on your weapon may backfire if you fight immunes such as Undead. Am I not going to be constantly healing them in fact? Or are there no enemies with over 100 percent resist?

While it does offer them healing, keep in mind that this type of build is used in support of mages so that your physical character can strip magic armor as well. Unless you dealth piercing damage, there is nothing to heal and therefore the poison damage simply isn't damaging their magic armor. This can be totally avoided using the eternal artifact to "poison" the weapon with shock damage, using a dagger whose innate elemental damage isn't poison and using a non-poison rune. Overall, the only poison damage in there is just the weapon coating and by using the firebrand instead of poison coating spell, the amount of healing they recieve isn't significant compared to the damage dealt. Its still a net gain for you, especially given that you are stripping both armor types to openthe target to all party members at little extra cost.

Got it; let me try it and see how it works for me then. Thanks as usual!

[DJTron]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

If you’re not invested into int, magic is worthless to you. Have your mages do that stuff. If you have no mages, your team is suffering from a critical and common flaw that people have come to believe is best. While harder to pull off successfully, mixed parties are indeed stronger than a focused party and you’re better off with both physical and magic damage dealers in your party. The only reason a stacked team feels so strong is because it’s simple enough that you’ll struggle to do it wrong.

I've never really gotten why people like singel-damage parites so much. The only mono-damage party I've tried only works because it's lone wolf and lone wolf is broken. Otherwise, all you need to do is focus down the low physical threats with physical and the same for magic. That way you have access to lots of cc and some enemies that would be hard with a mono-party become a breeze.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Deekester:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

If you’re not invested into int, magic is worthless to you. Have your mages do that stuff. If you have no mages, your team is suffering from a critical and common flaw that people have come to believe is best. While harder to pull off successfully, mixed parties are indeed stronger than a focused party and you’re better off with both physical and magic damage dealers in your party. The only reason a stacked team feels so strong is because it’s simple enough that you’ll struggle to do it wrong.

I've never really gotten why people like singel-damage parites so much. The only mono-damage party I've tried only works because it's lone wolf and lone wolf is broken. Otherwise, all you need to do is focus down the low physical threats with physical and the same for magic. That way you have access to lots of cc and some enemies that would be hard with a mono-party become a breeze.

Right? And if you get creative like the rogue build I described above, you can get a team that is like 3 physicals and 3 magic as some can do both. Not to mention its much more fun simply because you're mixing things up and have access to a wider range of abilities.

[Gamefever]

Answer to OP's title,
YES.

10 points invested into INT is 50% Damage increase,
10 points invested into Pyromancy is 50% Damage increase.

Savage Sortiledge talent then makes it possible to crit as a magic user on spells so you can achieve some one shots.

Now here's the thing though...
Your characters can benefit from dabbling in some magic abilities due to the fact that not all the skills are damage skills.

Example, I might want to invest 1 or 2 points into Necromancy, cause right off the bat I get Vitality back with any damage caused, its really good on a 2-Hander Warrior.

Cleric is a Hybrid type of class,
Warfare, Necromancy and Hydromancy...Thing is Clerics dont do a lot of Damage, they are mostly meant to just toss heals and correct status effects on your characters...Wrapped up in heavy armor with shield they dont tend to draw a lot of attacks from the opposition since they are not a high threat and tough to take down.

In a full 4 person party, your going to want 2 primary damage dealers....
I run with 1 focused on physical damage, Death Knight with 2 hander
and
a Battlemage: Pyromancer with 2 Handed Fire Staff.....Magic Based.
A Ranger, Archer/Summoner...
Cleric, <character spread out really thin but good for those heals and status changes.

In a 4 person party though having at least one character that is concentrated on just Buffing the other 3 people is really a good thing, this character you can afford to spread really thin cause Buff's dont do damage and you dont want to spend action points on primary damage dealers on Self Buffing.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Deekester:

I've never really gotten why people like singel-damage parites so much. The only mono-damage party I've tried only works because it's lone wolf and lone wolf is broken. Otherwise, all you need to do is focus down the low physical threats with physical and the same for magic. That way you have access to lots of cc and some enemies that would be hard with a mono-party become a breeze.

It's simpler for beginners, and we humans have a tendency to cling onto what works initially. With that said, however, I have yet come across an encounter that is difficult for an all-Physical party up to end of Act 2 though.

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Now here's the thing though...
Your characters can benefit from dabbling in some magic abilities due to the fact that not all the skills are damage skills.

Example, I might want to invest 1 or 2 points into Necromancy, cause right off the bat I get Vitality back with any damage caused, its really good on a 2-Hander Warrior.

Indeed; and that's what I have been doing. I go 2 Aerotheurge for Uncanny Evasion and Teleportation, 1 Geomancy for Fortify, and 1 Hydrosophy for Armour of Frost on literally every character. And I go 2 Necromancy for Bone Cage on most melees. So my question was strictly for nukes - which you answered well.

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Cleric is a Hybrid type of class,
Warfare, Necromancy and Hydromancy...Thing is Clerics dont do a lot of Damage, they are mostly meant to just toss heals and correct status effects on your characters...Wrapped up in heavy armor with shield they dont tend to draw a lot of attacks from the opposition since they are not a high threat and tough to take down.

I am running a hybrid of sorts that actually mixes all three schools you cited at the moment, but he is actually more of a 1H/shield support than a caster support. I use Fextralife's "Frost Paladin" as a template:

https://fextralife.com/divinity-original-sin-2-builds-frost-paladin/

Originally posted by Gamefever:

In a full 4 person party, your going to want 2 primary damage dealers....
I run with 1 focused on physical damage, Death Knight with 2 hander
and
a Battlemage: Pyromancer with 2 Handed Fire Staff.....Magic Based.
A Ranger, Archer/Summoner...
Cleric, <character spread out really thin but good for those heals and status changes.

In a 4 person party though having at least one character that is concentrated on just Buffing the other 3 people is really a good thing, this character you can afford to spread really thin cause Buff's dont do damage and you dont want to spend action points on primary damage dealers on Self Buffing.

Is your support/buff guy also high on Wits and going first? If not, then who goes first?

[Gamefever]

Originally posted by Gamefever:

In a full 4 person party, your going to want 2 primary damage dealers....
I run with 1 focused on physical damage, Death Knight with 2 hander
and
a Battlemage: Pyromancer with 2 Handed Fire Staff.....Magic Based.
A Ranger, Archer/Summoner...
Cleric, <character spread out really thin but good for those heals and status changes.

In a 4 person party though having at least one character that is concentrated on just Buffing the other 3 people is really a good thing, this character you can afford to spread really thin cause Buff's dont do damage and you dont want to spend action points on primary damage dealers on Self Buffing.

Is your support/buff guy also high on Wits and going first? If not, then who goes first? [/quote]

Thats the plan, I have been refining my characters for some time.
My Deathknight used to have the "Deathwish" ability on them but I figured out it was better to have that on my Cleric so the DK didnt waste AP self buffing.

My thinking is now that I'd be better off having a Buff character that has high Wits and high Memory...Plus about 2 points in each of the elements to get access to each of the Buff spells to apply to other characters.
A point in Scoundrel for Adrenaline Rush, will help me to rush out 6 single AP abilities at the start of the combat. My battlemage would normally apply something like Haste and maybe another buff at combat start but thats not really effective seeing as he is buffing rather than fighting. Not that I would remove Haste from my Battlemage, its a single AP skill easy to use now and then but if I waste 1 to 3 AP getting my primary damage dealers ready at turn 1 well than thats not real effective use of them.

Something of a Bard Class character, in a 4 person party it doesnt feel like a waste to me seeing as the other 2 or 3 can be full on attack mode from the start.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

More than you can manage without lone wolf. You simply can't stack one without harming the other. The only physical damage dealers that make good hybrids are archers and dual dagger rogues. Archers simply use elemental arrows to support their mages. Rogues stack daggers with a rune slot and innate element damage with a framed thunder rune (gives Finesse) and poison (or shock from eternal artifact) as well as abilities like poison coating or the similar flame spell that adds elemental damage to melee. All these effects can get their magic damage about equal to the physical damage on those daggers, allowing them to strip both armor types at once. This works best on rogues I've noticed simply because both damage types stack quite well with crit from backstabs. While other melee can use the same methods, I generally found the magic damage dealt to be a weaker ratio to physical than on rogues.

Okay, the more I play the more I realize that any investment in magic schools beyond 1 or 2 get buff spells for Physical damage classes is a waste. I re-did all my characters, and even my support "Paladin" has only 2 Hydrosophy/Huntsman for Mass Cleanse.

I am also thinking even Arrow Storm on my archer is "wasted," because 1 3-Sourcery AoE mega-nuke is still not enough; and I don't have any other character who can utilize a 3-Sourcery AoE nuke.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Gamefever:

Thats the plan, I have been refining my characters for some time.
My Deathknight used to have the "Deathwish" ability on them but I figured out it was better to have that on my Cleric so the DK didnt waste AP self buffing.

My thinking is now that I'd be better off having a Buff character that has high Wits and high Memory...Plus about 2 points in each of the elements to get access to each of the Buff spells to apply to other characters.
A point in Scoundrel for Adrenaline Rush, will help me to rush out 6 single AP abilities at the start of the combat. My battlemage would normally apply something like Haste and maybe another buff at combat start but thats not really effective seeing as he is buffing rather than fighting. Not that I would remove Haste from my Battlemage, its a single AP skill easy to use now and then but if I waste 1 to 3 AP getting my primary damage dealers ready at turn 1 well than thats not real effective use of them.

Something of a Bard Class character, in a 4 person party it doesnt feel like a waste to me seeing as the other 2 or 3 can be full on attack mode from the start.

I am frustrated in my effort to make my support guy a hybrid who can tank and do some damage - as well as "support" of course. So I abandoned anything beyond 2 investment in a magic school for even my support character, because he is a 1H/shield "paladin." I guess I could go for a full Intelligence support, but that would mean I'd also abandon the tankiness and the massive Overpower (massive even for a 1H wielder!) to start off fights.

Does your Intelligence support guy do any damage? How does his first turn go?

[Chaoslink]

I don't build "support" characters really. The closest thing is my memory main, but that character doesn't support my team with buffs and heals nearly as much as battlefield control by setting up mage's elemental affinity for high first turn damage to get armor stripped. The mages don't focus on kills quite as much as armor stripping and letting the 'support' maintain CCs while all the enemies get stripped before I go for kills. Buffs and heals are done through scrolls and occasional skills, often gained through stats on armor over investments. This character doesn't deal damage though, they instead fight using status effects.

I have never built a 1h/shield character. I don't build many physical dealers and my party is always more magic damage favored than physical. Even the 2/2 splits I've built, at least one physical dealer does something to assist the mages instead of the other physical.