all summoner party

[Bomjus]

so i've done it before, with 4 people, and it worked out pretty great. but it had it's problems. i had to gear 4 people, buy skills for four people, go through the summoning animations for four people, having to deal with 4 people's side quests (which was fun at the time but for a 2nd playthrough seems like a hassle)

and for lone wolf i feel like it has its own problems too for summoners: most of my summoners are "support" characters that had summoning spells and then just a huge array of supports for armor, hastes, teleports, healing, soul mate etc. with lone wolf i'll only have two characters with that repertoire of skills. so less supporting overall cause more cooldowns. also, lonewolf summons are at the same power level as 4 player summons but it takes a 4 player party just a little bit longer to reach that point. so once i get to level ~10 ish my 4 player party will be just as powerful, in terms of summons, as my lone wolf party.

also, for pure summoners, attributes aside from memory don't really mean♥♥♥♥♥♥since you don't do anything but summon. so i guess the difference is lone wolf summoners can basically be hybrid since they get so many skillpoints and can afford to be a summoner and warrior (for example) at the same time.

so, which would you do and why? 4 summoners for more incarnates and more support abilities overall, or 2 lonewolf summoners because they can be a pure summoner and later on in the game still perform as a regular class?

also, does anyone know which patch nerfed incarnates? back when i first played on launch my incarnate with 2 summoning had around ~25-27 HP. now he only has 10. curious what patch kicked incarnates in the nuts.

[Pyromus]

While I only had one summoner in my first lone wolf honor run, it worked out well for me. While with summoning specifically, a 4 man party would be stronger due to incarnates capping at 10 and LW stopping the scaled up power after that, the 4 man party also gets insanely repetitive summoning all of them every turn.

I would say a lone wolf pair of enchanters. Since LW can max out 4 skillsets by the end of the game, we can go summoning, hydro, aero to max, then either get poly to 5 for apotheosis/skin graft, while relying on gear for scoundrel to get adrenaline, or drop poly and get a point in geo and pyro and 3(6) in scoundrel for haste, peace of mind, fortify, adrenaline, cloak and dagger, chloroform, and general damage boost on crits.

Pre summon (probably only 1 due to time) incarnates before combat on electrified water, rain on enemies, and use your army of totems and electric incarnates to lock down all enemies with relative ease. Duo enchanters dish out massive damage, and with totems reapplying wet and shocked on everything, you won't have to worry about much. Double teleport and double netherswap (as well as warp infusion tps) will make setting up the cursed incarnates' nukes a piece of cake. And then your own thunderstorm/superconductor aoe death machines will only add to it.

Added bonus, drop down to one single handed weapon and grab ambidextrous, and you can spam out dazing bolt and superconductor scrolls on elemental affinity for one ap each, or summon 6 totems in one turn in scroll form.

Repetitive, but it would be powerful. I actually like tossing in summoning on lone wolf now due to having to build wide in DE LW.

[Chaoslink]

Personally, neither. The animation times were killer, especially if it would be all game. Summoning has always had scaling issues and knowing that I tend to drop it in act two, usually early on. Summoning is strong early, but doesn't hold up later on as well. I also get most of my fun from making unique and complicated builds.

However, if I had to, I'd go 4 man. A lone wolf incarnate is no more powerful than a normal incarnate, it just gets there faster. So I'd definitely want the extras.

[Pyromus]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Personally, neither. The animation times were killer, especially if it would be all game. Summoning has always had scaling issues and knowing that I tend to drop it in act two, usually early on. Summoning is strong early, but doesn't hold up later on as well. I also get most of my fun from making unique and complicated builds.

However, if I had to, I'd go 4 man. A lone wolf incarnate is no more powerful than a normal incarnate, it just gets there faster. So I'd definitely want the extras.

I can't tell if the OP was talking hypothetically or asking for a future run. Either way, I'd say the maxed out stats on 2-3 other skillsets for a LW and the lack of double repetitive summons outweighs the 2 extra incarnates. Although 4 battering rams would keep everything knocked down indefinitely.

[Nauzhror]

Originally posted by davemytnick33:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Personally, neither. The animation times were killer, especially if it would be all game. Summoning has always had scaling issues and knowing that I tend to drop it in act two, usually early on. Summoning is strong early, but doesn't hold up later on as well. I also get most of my fun from making unique and complicated builds.

However, if I had to, I'd go 4 man. A lone wolf incarnate is no more powerful than a normal incarnate, it just gets there faster. So I'd definitely want the extras.

I can't tell if the OP was talking hypothetically or asking for a future run. Either way, I'd say the maxed out stats on 2-3 other skillsets for a LW and the lack of double repetitive summons outweighs the 2 extra incarnates. Although 4 battering rams would keep everything knocked down indefinitely.

With 4 summoners, who'd be doing the damage to the enemies armor to let battering ram actually function >.>

[Chaoslink]

The incarnates would? Blood or regular. A bunch of summoners with finesse and bows could too. Probably the best weapon for them beyond wand and shield for creating surfaces and tankiness. The bow would deal reasonable damage without skills and can also make surfaces with consumable arrows. The damage is pretty reasonable with a blood buff from elemental arrowheads. It’s one of the reasons archers are the strongest class.

[Bomjus]

ya i know summoner is pretty much garbage tier now, compared to archery, two handers, magic nukes etc. etc.

but hey i like summoning. if someone can beat dark souls at SL1 naked, and with a guitar hero controller, i can beat tactician with four summoners.

[Chaoslink]

While everyone is going to compare X build to Y and tell you which is better, as long as you avoid key mistakes like splitting between major attributes, any build can perform well enough to succeed. And in the early game, summoning can actually be one of the strongest. The scaling has never been great, but it actually helps early on. I mean, I'd argue that you're better off with an INT build or a FIN build every time over a STR build as they're both just better, but that doesn't mean that STR builds are bad. There's just more advantages to taking the others.

[Gamer de esquerda]

Originally posted by fizban:

Originally posted by davemytnick33:

I can't tell if the OP was talking hypothetically or asking for a future run. Either way, I'd say the maxed out stats on 2-3 other skillsets for a LW and the lack of double repetitive summons outweighs the 2 extra incarnates. Although 4 battering rams would keep everything knocked down indefinitely.

With 4 summoners, who'd be doing the damage to the enemies armor to let battering ram actually function >.>

Incarnates + totems.

[Nauzhror]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

The incarnates would? Blood or regular. A bunch of summoners with finesse and bows could too. Probably the best weapon for them beyond wand and shield for creating surfaces and tankiness. The bow would deal reasonable damage without skills and can also make surfaces with consumable arrows. The damage is pretty reasonable with a blood buff from elemental arrowheads. It’s one of the reasons archers are the strongest class.

I was more memeing because summoner damage is trash than asking a serious question.

As for archers, they're not the strongest class. They're very strong, but a necromancer will absolutely put them to shame.

STR builds also aren't weaker than INT builds as a general rule.

A 2handed knight is more powerful than any int caster that isn't a necro.

Weapon damage gets outpaced by spells at very high levels, but those are levels you only even reach if using mods to raise the level of enemies.

[Bomjus]

i know you're not wrong, summoner damage is not the best, but damage being trash and being able to complete the story on tactician are two different things. i don't care about "clear times" in a game that is not played like diablo or PoE. so my damage isn't exactly relevant as long as it is not a barrier to my completion of the story.

[Pyromus]

Originally posted by fizban:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

The incarnates would? Blood or regular. A bunch of summoners with finesse and bows could too. Probably the best weapon for them beyond wand and shield for creating surfaces and tankiness. The bow would deal reasonable damage without skills and can also make surfaces with consumable arrows. The damage is pretty reasonable with a blood buff from elemental arrowheads. It’s one of the reasons archers are the strongest class.

I was more memeing because summoner damage is trash than asking a serious question.

As for archers, they're not the strongest class. They're very strong, but a necromancer will absolutely put them to shame.

STR builds also aren't weaker than INT builds as a general rule.

A 2handed knight is more powerful than any int caster that isn't a necro.

Weapon damage gets outpaced by spells at very high levels, but those are levels you only even reach if using mods to raise the level of enemies.

Summoner damage is lower than other builds, but if you consider it trash, you've never used them correctly.

I believe he meant archers are the strongest summoners. You don't have the points available on a summoner to also be an effective necromancer.

STR builds are 100% weaker than mages after around the end of act 2. Again, if that is not your experience, you haven't played mages correctly.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by fizban:

As for archers, they're not the strongest class. They're very strong, but a necromancer will absolutely put them to shame.

STR builds also aren't weaker than INT builds as a general rule.

A 2handed knight is more powerful than any int caster that isn't a necro.

Weapon damage gets outpaced by spells at very high levels, but those are levels you only even reach if using mods to raise the level of enemies.

Eh, I don’t want to derail too much so this’ll be my only response, but I want to make my point clearer. We’re comparing apples and oranges here. You’re comparing the builds at their strongest point, and primarily looking at damage output. I’m comparing everything a build has to offer at all levels. From that viewpoint, nothing comes close to the archer class. Every build that an archer can consider is available at all levels. They maintain their strength relatively through the entire game. They stay strong. Their survivability is decent with balanced armor levels and range. They are versatile, capable of dealing both damage types as well as adjusting their elements to the fight at hand when needed. There isn’t a team they can’t fit into and are excellent at playing supporting roles when needed. There aren’t many downsides to consider. If any.

On STR builds, any similar Finesse build can do anything a STR build can, but better. Any downside is countered by other benefits that I’d argue favor the finesse side. However, I’d still put INT builds above them. STR is primarily single target. And while it will hit harder than a mage, the mage can hit significantly more targets, more easily, for a combined higher damage output. Only a few select abilities or combos change that, which really isn’t a good way to rank something as they can be situational.

Which is why I’d put Necro no higher than third. Archers are better from level one. Necro only gains its strength later on, meaning they’re quite weak in comparison for a large part of the game. They’re an incredibly strong one trick pony of sorts, that I’d consider inferior to a good Aero build even since again, Aero is consistent throughout the game and is the strongest CC skill as well. It has a dependency on Hydro, but as anyone would tell you, all mages should run two elements.

I’d still stand firm, archers are the overall best, followed by INT builds, FIN builds and lastly STR builds. Then summoning. Almost all of these being quite close in power level to each other. But if you consider every aspect of each build in a generic sense, that would be how I’d rank them. My issue with strength being that finesse offers a counterpart that is inherently better, slightly, no matter how you approach it.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Bomjus:

i know you're not wrong, summoner damage is not the best, but damage being trash and being able to complete the story on tactician are two different things. i don't care about "clear times" in a game that is not played like diablo or PoE. so my damage isn't exactly relevant as long as it is not a barrier to my completion of the story.

Exactly. Most of this argument comes from a relative perspective comparing one build to another. When I say that a finesse build is better than a strength build, they’re actually almost exactly the same power level. There is only a very small bonus that makes the finesse build superior, small enough that they’re effectively still the same. Summoning is definitely still strong enough to beat the game with. It just lacks damage or CC output as a cost for the added versatility of being able to deal any given damage type the situation calls for. A powerful feature in its own right, just not enough to compare to a balanced team with dedicated builds. It has its purpose and roles though, especially good for newer players.

[Nobody]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by Bomjus:

i know you're not wrong, summoner damage is not the best, but damage being trash and being able to complete the story on tactician are two different things. i don't care about "clear times" in a game that is not played like diablo or PoE. so my damage isn't exactly relevant as long as it is not a barrier to my completion of the story.

Exactly. Most of this argument comes from a relative perspective comparing one build to another. When I say that a finesse build is better than a strength build, they’re actually almost exactly the same power level. There is only a very small bonus that makes the finesse build superior, small enough that they’re effectively still the same. Summoning is definitely still strong enough to beat the game with. It just lacks damage or CC output as a cost for the added versatility of being able to deal any given damage type the situation calls for. A powerful feature in its own right, just not enough to compare to a balanced team with dedicated builds. It has its purpose and roles though, especially good for newer players.

Ok it seems like you are a fairly logical and experienced player of this game, so hopefully you won’t mind a question or two. I just got the DE for my iPad and I’m preparing for my first play through (tactician, likely not honour to start). I’ve been browsing through ideas and trying a few ideas at lvls 1-3 to get a feel of the game before I ‘start for real’ and I was considering the following setup:

Fane: geo + pyro mage, more focus on pyro. Along the lines of scarlet inquisitor by sin
Beast: summoner+staff or dual wielder warrior, summoner of sparks type character (trying to get extra tanking from summoner and use summoner of sparks to keep incarnate relevant) (not positive on this tbh. Maybe I should just go crazy 2h living on the edge style character)
Lohsa: no idea wtf to do with her. Currently leaning to heavy geo mage dual wielder with a splash of buffing, dual wand setup. (Armour, haste, mind, first aid, fortify, frost armour)
Senile: archer. May pair her with beast if he 2Hs and just focus them on dealing with mages/low phys armour types. Or go magic archer for more fire power.

1) do you have any general advise on the setup?
2) lohsa sound like a decent idea?
3) summoner + sparks a good idea? Or just say f* it and go dual physical + magic?
3b) if physical should I perhaps think of something tankier like say dagger + shield gate guardian like build?

Thanks for any advise. It’s difficult to find info that’s 100% relevant to the way the game is now.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Nobody:

Ok it seems like you are a fairly logical and experienced player of this game, so hopefully you won’t mind a question or two. I just got the DE for my iPad and I’m preparing for my first play through (tactician, likely not honour to start). I’ve been browsing through ideas and trying a few ideas at lvls 1-3 to get a feel of the game before I ‘start for real’ and I was considering the following setup:

Fane: geo + pyro mage, more focus on pyro. Along the lines of scarlet inquisitor by sin
Beast: summoner+staff or dual wielder warrior, summoner of sparks type character (trying to get extra tanking from summoner and use summoner of sparks to keep incarnate relevant) (not positive on this tbh. Maybe I should just go crazy 2h living on the edge style character)
Lohsa: no idea wtf to do with her. Currently leaning to heavy geo mage dual wielder with a splash of buffing, dual wand setup. (Armour, haste, mind, first aid, fortify, frost armour)
Senile: archer. May pair her with beast if he 2Hs and just focus them on dealing with mages/low phys armour types. Or go magic archer for more fire power.

1) do you have any general advise on the setup?
2) lohsa sound like a decent idea?
3) summoner + sparks a good idea? Or just say f* it and go dual physical + magic?
3b) if physical should I perhaps think of something tankier like say dagger + shield gate guardian like build?

Thanks for any advise. It’s difficult to find info that’s 100% relevant to the way the game is now.

Nothing much to say for Fane, fairly basic there.

For Beast, I’m not too familiar with how sparking aura works with an incarnate because technically it uses unarmed strikes and sparking is a weapon buff. So I dunno if the aura version of the spell works on the incarnate. That said, anything summoning is typically best if you focus the summoning. It doesn’t really offer many skill points for cross spec so if you do go summoner, know that you need to be committed to the summoning as your main focus here. Everything else is sideline.

If instead you want to just go dual weapon and sparking, that’s an option. Sparking will help here with your Pyromage. You want to group enemies up and use cleaving weapons if possible to maximize your sparks. You don’t really need melee spells on that setup, you’ll be auto attacking to get the cleaves and multiple strikes.

Lohse going a Geo focus is fine. I personally recommend a Geo/Necro build I can describe more on later. Early on you’ll just be a Geo mage really.

An archer would fit in here great. Magic archer specifically. Can offer the specifics later as well if you’ve not already read on how to do it or found one of my many posts on the subject.