Roleplay and lose or Metaplay and win

[Mad]

Situation that my friend and I usually encounter is as following:

- Wandering through map, suddenly auto dialogue is engaged with some NPCs that I didn't know was coming

- Persuasion check is required, Persuasion fails

- Combat starts, we find ourselves in the middle of mobs, we get wrecked.
.
.
*Loads a save*
.
.
- We now know what will happen and prepare for the fight.

- We all go into sneak mode and one of the character teleports one of the mobs near the rest of the characters, while rest of the mobs have no idea what's happening

- We gang up on teleported mob and kill him

- Repeat the process until we kill all of the mobs

- Win


We started the game with intention of roleplaying and getting engaged in dialogue, but soon realized we are in for a world of frustrations because of aformentioned situation that happens way too often.

Now we just use the teleport + sneak trick on basically every fight and don't bother with dialogue because of prior experiences.

Fun we get out of the game is how are we gonna break the game battles by exploiting teleport spell.

That's how we won battle against White magister, Alexander, Sallow Man (sneak up on him and teleport him into lava = insta win)


And yes, I know I'll get a bunch of "lmao git gud" comments.

[Godwoken Dovahkiin]

Just like any other adventure, some adventurers meet their end. You roleplayed, your weren't prepared, you died, their story ends. You fell into traps, you didn't understand the enemies words and their aggression, you failed to notice that if a fight broke out you'd be in a disadvantageous position. It's all in the point of view, other games don't make you think about this.

Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdumVFgwgP8

[LukanGamer]

ya the diaoulge and the like not the best.

But you can just lower difficulty or grab some mods both of which would allow you to easier roleplay and if it becomes to easy then use roleplay to make it harder (who wears armor 24/7 or eats a ton of food during combat or maybe because of game you know a ambush is there but not character, etc...).

[Valrynn the Dragoness]

This game tends to really punish you if you group your characters up. It's usually best to have one person initiate the convo and have everyone else sit back. It's annoying but what can you do.

If you really like to try and beat fights on your first go, just note that buffs you apply to ANYONE in a convo, either initiating or listening in, DO NOT FADE WHILE IN CONVO. This way, you can stack the hell out of beneficial buffs on people so you're at an advantage when the fight does happen. So you can put stuff like Uncanny Evasion, Peace of Mind, Living on the Edge, etc on everyone. You can even put Spontaneous Combustion on any enemies in convo, as the casting of the buff on them doesn't make them mad, only the explosion. And the explosion doesn't occur till the fight starts.

If you're struggling real bad though it might just because your characters are built poorly/need better gear/new spells. This game can be fairly hard even on normal.

[Tomas Mac Mordain]

Sometimes developers don't know what they are doing.

Starting my second attempt at the game now. In my first, I was put on the ship and the first thing the game encouraged me to do through the UI was to steal some book. I did so successfully.

I was killed by the guards about 20 seconds later for stealing that book. Found I had to repeat the entire intro section with unskippable cutscenes and dialog.

If the first time you present a feature to the player is the one time they are punished for using it, you're doing it wrong. Or maybe you're doing a super meat boy kind of game.

At the time, I quit and uninstalled to make space for other games.

Giving it another shot now. I remember to not steal that book at least.

[Mathius]

Originally posted by Mad:

Situation that my friend and I usually encounter is as following:

- Wandering through map, suddenly auto dialogue is engaged with some NPCs that I didn't know was coming

- Persuasion check is required, Persuasion fails

- Combat starts, we find ourselves in the middle of mobs, we get wrecked.
.
.
*Loads a save*
.
.
- We now know what will happen and prepare for the fight.

- We all go into sneak mode and one of the character teleports one of the mobs near the rest of the characters, while rest of the mobs have no idea what's happening

- We gang up on teleported mob and kill him

- Repeat the process until we kill all of the mobs

- Win


We started the game with intention of roleplaying and getting engaged in dialogue, but soon realized we are in for a world of frustrations because of aformentioned situation that happens way too often.

Now we just use the teleport + sneak trick on basically every fight and don't bother with dialogue because of prior experiences.

Fun we get out of the game is how are we gonna break the game battles by exploiting teleport spell.

That's how we won battle against White magister, Alexander, Sallow Man (sneak up on him and teleport him into lava = insta win)


And yes, I know I'll get a bunch of "lmao git gud" comments.

This is why I've always been disdainful of "speech checks" that RPG'ers seem to think is a necessary core game mechanic. They're the lowest form of role playing, IMO.

I'm pretty new to DOS2, but I ran into this all the time in New Vegas. Games are supposed to be interactive. Telling a story through dialogue is the laziest way to do it, and RPG's at their core always seem to place restrictions instead of celebrating a character's strengths.

In real life, there are multiple ways to achieve results even if you don't have the physical gifts necessary for a task.

Instead of making me avoid content because I didn't have a high enough skill why not give me another way around it using a different skill.

[ALYONA DECOY]

If u noob so it's ok for you)

[LukanGamer]

Originally posted by Mathius:

This is why I've always been disdainful of "speech checks" that RPG'ers seem to think is a necessary core game mechanic. They're the lowest form of role playing, IMO.

I'm pretty new to DOS2, but I ran into this all the time in New Vegas. Games are supposed to be interactive. Telling a story through dialogue is the laziest way to do it, and RPG's at their core always seem to place restrictions instead of celebrating a character's strengths.

In real life, there are multiple ways to achieve results even if you don't have the physical gives necessary for a task.

Instead of making me avoid content because I didn't have a high enough skill why not give me another way around it using a different skill.

"speech checks" lowest form of role playing:
I mean at least you said IMO but ya I mean they are to further develop your character as being a character if you think persuasion (or epic capability of talking) is not a thing that is controlled by a person you never once followed history/politics/war/etc...

Telling a story through dialogue is the laziest way to do it:
What? lol..... no its not it quite the opposite... and is kind of needed in vast majority of cases. (heck on developers it is 1 of 2 reasons its not done or even #1 reason if its unvoiced)

ran into no options all the time in New Vegas + making me avoid content because I didn't have a high enough skill why not give me another way around it using a different skill:
ummmmm ummmmmm it has 1 the higher amount of options of games...., never forces you, gives you many way to boost stats to reach requirements for optional choices (books/comics/drugs/items/perks/etc...)

even if you don't have the *physical* gives necessary for a task:
now you suddenly talking about physical so confused .


I really suggest just sticking to the dungeon crawlers for you (the 1st person rpgs where you just click puzzles and click attack 4xs -> 1 for each "member") or action rpgs (diablos).
those Have what you want (and to each their own).

[Mathius]

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

"speech checks" lowest form of role playing:
I mean at least you said IMO but ya I mean they are to further develop your character as being a character if you think persuasion (or epic capability of talking) is not a thing that is controlled by a person you never once followed history/politics/war/etc...

No, it's crap. My "skill" is 99, so I suddenly have another dialogue option? That's the dumbest thing ever. I can literally talk about anything IRL whether I'm talking out my ass or not, but in a game, it "develops your character" ?

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

Telling a story through dialogue is the laziest way to do it:
What? lol..... no its not it quite the opposite... and is kind of needed in vast majority of cases. (heck it 1 of 2 reasons its not done or even #1 reason if its unvoiced)

Except it's not needed. Skill checks are far superior to speech checks. If I have a high pyrotechnics skill I should be able to burn down a door. If I have a high thievery skill, lock picks. If I have high strength, maybe I just break the door. These are actions that define your character.

Not some stupid line of dialogue some writer said sounded good.

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

ran into no options all the time in New Vegas + making me avoid content because I didn't have a high enough skill why not give me another way around it using a different skill:
ummmmm ummmmmm it has 1 the higher amount of options of games...., never forces you, gives you many way to boost stats to reach requirements for optional choices (books/comics/drugs/items/perks/etc...)

You think it adds something, I think it takes away. I'm missing out on content because of a character design.

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

even if you don't have the *physical* gives necessary for a task:
now you suddenly talking about physical so confused .

It's called an analogy.

If I need to get into a door, I can use a key, I can pick the lock, I can call a locksmith, I can break the door. If I don't have the physical gifts to do one thing, that doesn't mean I'm shut down and I can't get the door opened. But this is RPG logic.

If I'm not a good fighter, I can buy a better weapon, I can avoid the person who wants to fight me, I can hire a body guard, I can call the police. Many options IRL for dealing with people.

But RPG's are written backwards. They want you to pick ONE skill to be able to do something that is supposed to define your character.

Your character should be defined by HOW they handle a situation, not IF they can handle it.

[Martial.Lore]

It's up to you whether or not you choose to engage with the tools and gameplay mechanics provided by a developer to create their game and make it work to their satisfaction. Your own satisfaction with their efforts is your prerogative. It's not ours.

[Godwoken Dovahkiin]

Originally posted by Mathius:

Except it's not needed. Skill checks are far superior to speech checks. If I have a high pyrotechnics skill I should be able to burn down a door. If I have a high thievery skill, lock picks. If I have high strength, maybe I just break the door. These are actions that define your character.
If I need to get into a door, I can use a key, I can pick the lock, I can call a locksmith, I can break the door. If I don't have the physical gifts to do one thing, that doesn't mean I'm shut down and I can't get the door opened. But this is RPG logic.

I agree with this, more RPG's should have skills checks, makes things more immersive and makes putting points into skills interactive instead of it just being a number. So as long as every skill has a choice. I think this is harder to pull off and time consuming for the devs, but it would add more depth and make it a better game.

[Mathius]

Originally posted by Godwoken Dovahkiin:

I think this is harder to pull off and time consuming for the devs, but it would add more depth and make it a better game.

It absolutely IS more time consuming, but this is why I say speech checks are the lowest form of roleplaying in video games, because they're the quickest/easiest.

[Konomi☆Nanasaki]

while i don't know which difficulty you're playing on i'd say it definitely is a legitimate choice to play on a lower difficulty and engage in more roleplaying if that's what you prefer.

[LukanGamer]

(@Mathius) I just assumed you were wording poorly, but apparently not;
I mean its ok for every skill check but persuasion Lol .... makes 0 sense .......... and should be able to do this 1 particular thing I want to do -> translates then to should be able to do litteraly anything feasible which not only would include persuasion (which clearly you have 0pts in :D along with 0 pts in knowing what persuasion is ---> again you really should study more try and get a C in history (many many other classes and life things but this easiest thing) without cheating or something) but would also have to include far to many things that would make it impossible. (why just burn a lock, why not carry the whole chest, throw it off a cliff, use your axe and cut a tree down to it falls on it, freeze the lock then smash it, use polymorph/transmutation on it or turn into a bug/shrink and go inside it, bring the chest to a locksmith or better thief, pour something into it maybe try and flood it, balance it on your head while doing jumping jacks and praying to your god to bless it and open it for you, etc.... etc... etc... etc....)

[Mathius]

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

(@Mathius) I just assumed you were wording poorly, but apparently not;
I mean its ok for every skill check but persuasion Lol .... makes 0 sense .......... and should be able to do this 1 particular thing I want to do -> translates then to should be able to do litteraly anything feasible which not only would include persuasion (which clearly you have 0pts in :D along with 0 pts in knowing what persuasion is ---> again you really should study more try and get a C in history (many many other classes and life things but this easiest thing) without cheating or something) but would also have to include far to many things that would make it impossible. (why just burn a lock, why not carry the whole chest, throw it off a cliff, use your axe and cut a tree down to it falls on it, freeze the lock then smash it, use polymorph/transmutation on it or turn into a bug/shrink and go inside it, bring the chest to a locksmith or better thief, pour something into it maybe try and flood it, balance it on your head while doing jumping jacks and praying to your god to bless it and open it for you, etc.... etc... etc... etc....)

I don't know about studying history, but you should study grammar and communication.

[Hobocop]

That's kinda the idea. You're not good at Persuasion without investment in the requisite skill. Doesn't mean you're not free to engage in combat or environmental interactions in a way that befits the skills your party has available to it.