New player question

[tomato wizard]

So is Ifben's wolf summon just a neutral base summon or does it have special powers?

I want to make a ranger build, ya know like huntsman and his wolf, but I don't know if summoning an elemental creature is going to be better than the wolf. Whats the point of it? Can you summon both?

[Stormsong]

Afrit (Ifan's wolf) is non-elemental and possesses a Taunt, and a piercing bite which applies ruptured tendons.

[Chaoslink]

The thing about it is, it’s a summoned creature. For anything summoned to be effective, you need points in summoning. However, to keep summoning scaling properly, you can’t really afford to invest in something else until summoning caps out, making that something else perform significantly worse than it should. This usually makes summoning an all in skill.

In other words, if you want Ifan to be a ranger, build him like a ranger, putting a few points into huntsman to learn the spells, the stacking Warfare for damage while possibly taking some other skill like Scoundrel or a magic skill for some support abilities. Otherwise, build him as a summoner and invest entirely into summoning. You’re better off using someone else as your ranger if you want him to use his summon for anything significant. The wolf alone isn’t too bad, it just usually isn’t worth the source point to actually summon it.

Additional summons can be useful if you use supercharger on one to burst damage, then summon the other, but again, that’d be effective only for deviated summoners.

[Cake for Mumm-Ra]

It also bears mentioning that the summon wolf ability uses a source point which is something you wont be able to use until you've progressed into the game a bit. I'm a new player as well, but I've read that the source points are fairly rare - don't plan to summon the wolf to every fight.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Cake for Mumm-Ra:

It also bears mentioning that the summon wolf ability uses a source point which is something you wont be able to use until you've progressed into the game a bit. I'm a new player as well, but I've read that the source points are fairly rare - don't plan to summon the wolf to every fight.

Kinda, though source isn’t really rare so much as tedious. You can find infinite source fountains you can refill at and use teleported pyramids you get after act one to just teleport back and forth to refill. You also have the wands from act one, various potion sources, pools on the ground and the spell you learn early in act two. It isn’t too hard to have it when you need it, just kinda tedious.

[tomato wizard]

So, if I used Ifan, and went straight ranged without leveling summoning then the wolf would be generally useless? And if I did go summoning, then could I summon the wolf as well as elementals at the same time?

Would going lone wolf with one other character allow for more damage and faster lvl10 summoning and make this viable? I kinda wanna do Ifan for the aesthetics of a summoned wolf, but I can only summon the wolf occasionally, and it wont be as strong as other summons Ill just scrap the idea.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by oh wow:

So, if I used Ifan, and went straight ranged without leveling summoning then the wolf would be generally useless? And if I did go summoning, then could I summon the wolf as well as elementals at the same time?

Would going lone wolf with one other character allow for more damage and faster lvl10 summoning and make this viable? I kinda wanna do Ifan for the aesthetics of a summoned wolf, but I can only summon the wolf occasionally, and it wont be as strong as other summons Ill just scrap the idea.

Not useless, just less powerful. It would still deal damage and absorb some hits. But it will probably get beaten down after 2-3 turns of combat.

Look at it more as creating a ranger class where a spirit wolf can aid when you need an extra body to take some hits and deal some damage.

[Chaoslink]

Only one summon can exist per summoner. So either way you’d not have them both up. However, the supercharger skill can be used to double the damage of anything you summon, but also causes it to die after its next turn. So you can summon something and supercharge it for burst damage, then follow up with another summon.

Thing is, due to how summoning scales, it falls off in effectiveness later game. It simply doesn’t scale enough. It’s still viable, and is actually one of the strongest skills early on, it just doesn’t keep scaling and eventually becomes the weakest.

The wolf is... probably not worth building around without mods.

[tomato wizard]

Darn, well thanks for the advice and information guys.

An unrelated question though, how does Undead work as far as wearing a mask? Like can I have a character like Fane using a helmet that doesnt cover his face? If someone sees his bones will they get aggressive immediately?

[Chaoslink]

It just requires an item in each slot. Even if the item is a hat that doesn’t cover any bit of the face, it works.

[tomato wizard]

Oh ok sick. Thanks man

[rasmasyean]

What about Door to Eternity source spell? Does that prevent them from expiring after SuperCharger?

The other thing you can do is use Living on Edge (Death Resist) and Death Wish (+ HP% loss to damage). That would double it's damage if it's a successful "Meat Shield", which it is in situations. Of course that's using more side points (Necro).

Then there's some source and regular Pets that are in different trees. In general, the "most" you will get out of Summoning is if you Keep summoning Pets, and use up the Pet's spell in 1 or 2 turns. This way a summon = a free 4AP spell chain or something. In order to do this, you need to spread points across most trees, thus making it not much of anything else let alone an Archer.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

What about Door to Eternity source spell? Does that prevent them from expiring after SuperCharger?

The other thing you can do is use Living on Edge (Death Resist) and Death Wish (+ HP% loss to damage). That would double it's damage if it's a successful "Meat Shield", which it is in situations. Of course that's using more side points (Necro).

Then there's some source and regular Pets that are in different trees. In general, the "most" you will get out of Summoning is if you Keep summoning Pets, and use up the Pet's spell in 1 or 2 turns. This way a summon = a free 4AP spell chain or something. In order to do this, you need to spread points across most trees, thus making it not much of anything else let alone an Archer.

Yeah, but the issue that you face still is the scaling. There's other things too like AP efficiency. Yes, the summon has its own AP on top of the summoner's AP, but to reach full potential the summoner has to use a LOT of AP to buff their summons in the case of the incarnate just to make it good. Even then, the AP the incarnate uses can't be modified by things like elemental affinity and other talents and overall has enough limitations on total spells available and how it deals damage or moves around that it really isn't all that efficient for its strength, which also wanes later game. There's a reason its widely regarded as the weakest skill in the game later on. It is inherently broken because of how it scales. It can be fun to mess with, but it just doesn't compete as you scale up the difficulty and character levels.

[rasmasyean]

If we're talking about the Incarnate...which takes 6 AP later to make strongest I presume...doesn't it just take 1 AP to "reset" it to some other spell line? That sounds kind of efficient. I mean, it might take a little bit to get there, especially if you use those Necro spells on it as well (not necessarily from Summoner), but it's just like Totems. The "scale" comes later on.

But perhaps it's partly my playstyle...I found the Incarnate an invaluable "tank", and it doesn't die as easy as I've been lead to believe. I've often waited for it to die because I didn't want to "waste" it by making some other Pet, but it often doesn't. Maybe it's because I also had a real tank which shared the damage, but I do imagine that liberal use of Living on Edge will keep the Incarnate being a good sponge at least, in addition to let you chain Elemental/Source Infusions, if you're concentrating on that particular pet.

Also, does corpse explosion and stuff like that scale off Summoning?

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

If we're talking about the Incarnate...which takes 6 AP later to make strongest I presume...doesn't it just take 1 AP to "reset" it to some other spell line? That sounds kind of efficient. I mean, it might take a little bit to get there, especially if you use those Necro spells on it as well (not necessarily from Summoner), but it's just like Totems. The "scale" comes later on.

But perhaps it's partly my playstyle...I found the Incarnate an invaluable "tank", and it doesn't die as easy as I've been lead to believe. I've often waited for it to die because I didn't want to "waste" it by making some other Pet, but it often doesn't. Maybe it's because I also had a real tank which shared the damage, but I do imagine that liberal use of Living on Edge will keep the Incarnate being a good sponge at least, in addition to let you chain Elemental/Source Infusions, if you're concentrating on that particular pet.

Also, does corpse explosion and stuff like that scale off Summoning?

The thing about the efficiency is far beyond just the summoner’s AP though. Incarnates lack any good reposition skills like tactical retreat and the like. Magic incarnates have very limited spells at their disposal that can’t have their AP cut by elemental affinity. A magic incarnate’s attacks are physical in nature. Not that they deal physical damage, but that they can be dodged, meaning that enemy dodge affects their damage as well as resistances. So a 40% resistant enemy takes less damage from their attacks and can also dodge those attacks. This coupled with the AP costs to close distances to actually attack causes their damage per turn to decrease significantly compared to a dedicated build from a player character. The more stats and talents your characters get, the less the incarnate has to compete. The cost of all the summoning points on the summoner gimps whatever second skill you might offer them until the last few levels as well, which coupled with losing at least their first turn summoning and buffing the incarnate causes their damage and effects to not really cover the inefficiency of the incarnate itself.

One rule I build my teams by is the burst damage concept. Effectively, you plan how your characters will act in advance, then calculate their damage output (approximately anyway) per turn. Each turn after the first takes a 20% hit to the total adding up to 0% damage over a few turns. The concept is that the earlier you can deal damage, the sooner you can kill or Cc your enemy, lowering incoming damage and tilting the battle in your favor. This is why summoning basically isn’t a skill in the game as far as I’m concerned. It’s just too inefficient to compete outside the lower level parts of the game.

Only skills that exclusively say they scale off summoning or spells used by a summoned creature gain effect from summoning. Corpse explosion would not, but the explosion of the bloated corpse should.

Tanks can work as you’ve learned. They’re also inefficient though, so I only build them if playing just for fun or using wacky builds.

[rasmasyean]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

If we're talking about the Incarnate...which takes 6 AP later to make strongest I presume...doesn't it just take 1 AP to "reset" it to some other spell line? That sounds kind of efficient. I mean, it might take a little bit to get there, especially if you use those Necro spells on it as well (not necessarily from Summoner), but it's just like Totems. The "scale" comes later on.

But perhaps it's partly my playstyle...I found the Incarnate an invaluable "tank", and it doesn't die as easy as I've been lead to believe. I've often waited for it to die because I didn't want to "waste" it by making some other Pet, but it often doesn't. Maybe it's because I also had a real tank which shared the damage, but I do imagine that liberal use of Living on Edge will keep the Incarnate being a good sponge at least, in addition to let you chain Elemental/Source Infusions, if you're concentrating on that particular pet.

Also, does corpse explosion and stuff like that scale off Summoning?

The thing about the efficiency is far beyond just the summoner’s AP though. Incarnates lack any good reposition skills like tactical retreat and the like. Magic incarnates have very limited spells at their disposal that can’t have their AP cut by elemental affinity. A magic incarnate’s attacks are physical in nature. Not that they deal physical damage, but that they can be dodged, meaning that enemy dodge affects their damage as well as resistances. So a 40% resistant enemy takes less damage from their attacks and can also dodge those attacks. This coupled with the AP costs to close distances to actually attack causes their damage per turn to decrease significantly compared to a dedicated build from a player character. The more stats and talents your characters get, the less the incarnate has to compete. The cost of all the summoning points on the summoner gimps whatever second skill you might offer them until the last few levels as well, which coupled with losing at least their first turn summoning and buffing the incarnate causes their damage and effects to not really cover the inefficiency of the incarnate itself.

One rule I build my teams by is the burst damage concept. Effectively, you plan how your characters will act in advance, then calculate their damage output (approximately anyway) per turn. Each turn after the first takes a 20% hit to the total adding up to 0% damage over a few turns. The concept is that the earlier you can deal damage, the sooner you can kill or Cc your enemy, lowering incoming damage and tilting the battle in your favor. This is why summoning basically isn’t a skill in the game as far as I’m concerned. It’s just too inefficient to compete outside the lower level parts of the game.

Only skills that exclusively say they scale off summoning or spells used by a summoned creature gain effect from summoning. Corpse explosion would not, but the explosion of the bloated corpse should.

Tanks can work as you’ve learned. They’re also inefficient though, so I only build them if playing just for fun or using wacky builds.

What about the Source Infusions? I think I've got it to 18 and it takes 2 AP less than the "Mage equivalent". Plus if you had already buffed the Incarnate, isn't casting that like a souped up level 18 mage spell? That's gotta be at least a bit competative in the end game.

Add in the Source pets that also can absorb some hits (i.e. waste enemy turns) since you would often put them in the enemies face to make the best use of their attack/spell chain.

This is of course if you don't use the Random Elemeantal Rain spell...which kind sucks.