Is there any build that undead lizards are good for?

[KalkiKrosah]

I'm under the impression that undead lizards are the worst race to play as. Undead already get 200% poison resistance so an extra 10% is negligible. The 10% fire resistance may prove useful if the poison puddle you were standing in exploded... but if you were intelligent you would be using poison potions instead. And play dead can come in handy but the main appeal of being a lizard is the fire breath which you miss out on by being undead. And being undead passes up on the free persuasion point you would have gotten if you were a living lizard. I guess free lock picks is a strong perk to have but then again undead humans, elves and dwarves also get those perks too so its once again a moot point.

I want to think that the undead lizard's best build might be as a Geomancer who specializes in poison but I think dwarves (both living and undead) fulfill this role far better. Has anyone else played an undead lizard and found a class that suits them?

[Chaoslink]

Don't underestimate extra poison resistance on undead. It might seem excessive, but that basically means you get an additional 10% healing from poison sources that way. Though honestly, the undead version of pretty much every race is worse than the living version.

[rasmasyean]

Well, if you're going for a Magic Resist build, that's 10% less you have to worry about. That can mean an extra modifier because some modifiers are 10% resist. The item would have something else in place of that, like +1 Geomancer (or +2 maybe?). Also if you already have 100% vs. 90%, you don't need that 11% Fire rune and can put something else in it. You get to choose a the modifiers in this case.

In general, Undead is easier to make Magic resistant because they have a free 100% head start. Lizard will just bump it a bit while giving you Play Dead. I personally never used it, but I think some tactics do have creative ways to use it I've read.

[KalkiKrosah]

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

Well, if you're going for a Magic Resist build, that's 10% less you have to worry about. That can mean an extra modifier because some modifiers are 10% resist. The item would have something else in place of that, like +1 Geomancer (or +2 maybe?). Also if you already have 100% vs. 90%, you don't need that 11% Fire rune and can put something else in it. You get to choose a the modifiers in this case.

In general, Undead is easier to make Magic resistant because they have a free 100% head start. Lizard will just bump it a bit while giving you Play Dead. I personally never used it, but I think some tactics do have creative ways to use it I've read.

The undead make for really good rogues since they are usually glass cannons and play dead can allow them to lie down and chug poison potions without incurring any bad attention from enemies. I think its Fane's best class.

Fane also makes for a really good necromancer. The AI loves to spam healing spells on any of the player's undead party members so they do need some defensive stats to mitigate this. The necromancer tree allows you to heal back a percentage of any of the damage you deal and when paired with savage sortilege and living armor can make him a very effective tank. When I make a physical team I usually run a rogue, an archer/summoner, a fighter and a necromancer. Necromancer skills scale off warfare so it's a strange setup where you have an intelligent fighter but it works.

[KalkiKrosah]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Don't underestimate extra poison resistance on undead. It might seem excessive, but that basically means you get an additional 10% healing from poison sources that way. Though honestly, the undead version of pretty much every race is worse than the living version.

Every race gets a +1 to some passive skill. Lizards get persuasion, Elves get loremaster, dwarves get sneaking and humans get bartering. The undead versions miss out on this but since I always go with thievery on my skeletons it never seems to make much difference to me.

I mentioned earlier that undead dwarves make for better tanks. Undead dwarves still retain their racial bonus for 10% vitality and extra dodge. No matter what enemy you face extra vitality and dodge will always be viable. The undead lizard's resistances will only play a part when facing enemies of a particular school and even then they're probably just going to target somebody else instead.

Undead lizards are streamlined into being the most effective poison sponges. They get 210% poison resistance right at level 1. I can't think of too many fights where I wish that the percentage on the lizard resistances was higher, even 20%, as that would give it more justification to be picked over a dwarf. Unfortunately that is not the case.

[LukanGamer]

honestly race other then elf's flesh sacrifice and of course undead in general have no real significent effect on build, I mean you would have to be 100% min-maxing for it to matter in slightest.

[Arghaab]

Just a though here but I heard multiple times now that free lockpicks was a strong perk to have.
From my experience, you get more lockpicks in Fort Joy alone than the amount you need for the rest of the game, so I really don't understand why. Can somebody explain why it's valuable at all?

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by KalkiKrosah:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Don't underestimate extra poison resistance on undead. It might seem excessive, but that basically means you get an additional 10% healing from poison sources that way. Though honestly, the undead version of pretty much every race is worse than the living version.

Every race gets a +1 to some passive skill. Lizards get persuasion, Elves get loremaster, dwarves get sneaking and humans get bartering. The undead versions miss out on this but since I always go with thievery on my skeletons it never seems to make much difference to me.

I mentioned earlier that undead dwarves make for better tanks. Undead dwarves still retain their racial bonus for 10% vitality and extra dodge. No matter what enemy you face extra vitality and dodge will always be viable. The undead lizard's resistances will only play a part when facing enemies of a particular school and even then they're probably just going to target somebody else instead.

Undead lizards are streamlined into being the most effective poison sponges. They get 210% poison resistance right at level 1. I can't think of too many fights where I wish that the percentage on the lizard resistances was higher, even 20%, as that would give it more justification to be picked over a dwarf. Unfortunately that is not the case.

True, but vitality is almost equally insignificant, the dodge being the only real benefit from being Dwarf, and I believe it's 5%, not 10. Even that is somewhat mitigated considering that uncanny evasion exists to give you dodge when needed and how play dead is a second damage avoidance tool. It's always better to mitigate incoming damage than absorb it after all. That 10% extra healing from poison I'd argue is better than the dwarf vitality if you build around poison and have living armor.

Honestly, I'd say it comes down to player skill/experience really. Dwarf being better for the less experienced players looking for an easier to build and safer pick. Though honestly, I'd put human above dwarf if just for the crit boost.

[Spoopy]

Originally posted by Arghaab:

Just a though here but I heard multiple times now that free lockpicks was a strong perk to have.
From my experience, you get more lockpicks in Fort Joy alone than the amount you need for the rest of the game, so I really don't understand why. Can somebody explain why it's valuable at all?

It's just nice not having to worry about lockpicks whatsoever, having to trade them over to the person who can lockpick, etc. And I agree you get enough lockpicks that it doesn't really matter but either you're not picking enough locks or you got extremely lucky because not a single one of my playthroughs I've left fort joy with enough to last me through probably the rest of the first act, certainly not the entire game.

[rasmasyean]

Originally posted by ;1740014123051862978:

Originally posted by Arghaab:

Just a though here but I heard multiple times now that free lockpicks was a strong perk to have.
From my experience, you get more lockpicks in Fort Joy alone than the amount you need for the rest of the game, so I really don't understand why. Can somebody explain why it's valuable at all?

It's just nice not having to worry about lockpicks whatsoever, having to trade them over to the person who can lockpick, etc. And I agree you get enough lockpicks that it doesn't really matter but either you're not picking enough locks or you got extremely lucky because not a single one of my playthroughs I've left fort joy with enough to last me through probably the rest of the first act, certainly not the entire game.

I believe "Magic Pockets" share items across inventories, including Lockpicks, Disarming kits, Magnifying glass, and keys.

I think if you use Thievery, you can get enough Lockpicks without needing Undead. It's a little better than the Lizard's dig skill, but I wouldn't prioritize it as a reason to pick Undead.

[rasmasyean]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by KalkiKrosah:

Every race gets a +1 to some passive skill. Lizards get persuasion, Elves get loremaster, dwarves get sneaking and humans get bartering. The undead versions miss out on this but since I always go with thievery on my skeletons it never seems to make much difference to me.

I mentioned earlier that undead dwarves make for better tanks. Undead dwarves still retain their racial bonus for 10% vitality and extra dodge. No matter what enemy you face extra vitality and dodge will always be viable. The undead lizard's resistances will only play a part when facing enemies of a particular school and even then they're probably just going to target somebody else instead.

Undead lizards are streamlined into being the most effective poison sponges. They get 210% poison resistance right at level 1. I can't think of too many fights where I wish that the percentage on the lizard resistances was higher, even 20%, as that would give it more justification to be picked over a dwarf. Unfortunately that is not the case.

True, but vitality is almost equally insignificant, the dodge being the only real benefit from being Dwarf, and I believe it's 5%, not 10. Even that is somewhat mitigated considering that uncanny evasion exists to give you dodge when needed and how play dead is a second damage avoidance tool. It's always better to mitigate incoming damage than absorb it after all. That 10% extra healing from poison I'd argue is better than the dwarf vitality if you build around poison and have living armor.

Honestly, I'd say it comes down to player skill/experience really. Dwarf being better for the less experienced players looking for an easier to build and safer pick. Though honestly, I'd put human above dwarf if just for the crit boost.

There may be a couple of niche builds where vitality helps though. Like it's the only HP bar you can pump such that a really deadly enemy won't one-two-shot you with nice crits. There's also the explode talent I guess, if you build around your character going out with a bang. I think that does vitality damage.

[rasmasyean]

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

honestly race other then elf's flesh sacrifice and of course undead in general have no real significent effect on build, I mean you would have to be 100% min-maxing for it to matter in slightest.

I think elf doesn't have much of an effect either, because it's pretty much equally good on any build. That would leave Undead as the only race that impacts your build really.

[LukanGamer]

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

honestly race other then elf's flesh sacrifice and of course undead in general have no real significent effect on build, I mean you would have to be 100% min-maxing for it to matter in slightest.

I think elf doesn't have much of an effect either, because it's pretty much equally good on any build. That would leave Undead as the only race that impacts your build really.

only elfs can do flesh sacrifice also they can eat body parts. But ya it still pretty minor.

[KalkiKrosah]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by KalkiKrosah:

Every race gets a +1 to some passive skill. Lizards get persuasion, Elves get loremaster, dwarves get sneaking and humans get bartering. The undead versions miss out on this but since I always go with thievery on my skeletons it never seems to make much difference to me.

I mentioned earlier that undead dwarves make for better tanks. Undead dwarves still retain their racial bonus for 10% vitality and extra dodge. No matter what enemy you face extra vitality and dodge will always be viable. The undead lizard's resistances will only play a part when facing enemies of a particular school and even then they're probably just going to target somebody else instead.

Undead lizards are streamlined into being the most effective poison sponges. They get 210% poison resistance right at level 1. I can't think of too many fights where I wish that the percentage on the lizard resistances was higher, even 20%, as that would give it more justification to be picked over a dwarf. Unfortunately that is not the case.

True, but vitality is almost equally insignificant, the dodge being the only real benefit from being Dwarf, and I believe it's 5%, not 10. Even that is somewhat mitigated considering that uncanny evasion exists to give you dodge when needed and how play dead is a second damage avoidance tool. It's always better to mitigate incoming damage than absorb it after all. That 10% extra healing from poison I'd argue is better than the dwarf vitality if you build around poison and have living armor.

Honestly, I'd say it comes down to player skill/experience really. Dwarf being better for the less experienced players looking for an easier to build and safer pick. Though honestly, I'd put human above dwarf if just for the crit boost.

Every tank I make runs a shield and as you progress in the game you need to put points into constitution in order to equip better shields. Most of the time the enemy never even touches my health bar but there is synergy between the Dwarven sturdy trait and pumping points into constitution. Even then, the rare dodges that comes from the dwarven dodge booster is more significant than the fire and poison resistances because it can happen in every fight no matter what the enemy runs.

And from my experience everything inevitably ends up on fire so standing in a puddle of poison invites getting blown up. 10% fire resistance doesn't equalize the boost fire gets from exploding on poison, so you end up taking more damage than you heal by standing in a poison puddle. I wish the Lizard's racial sophisticated ability gave a higher resistance percentage to make fire walking more common than it already is. I made a Red Prince build geared around fire walking and at level 17 I finally lucked out and got enough gear to become immune to fire. An undead lizard may benefit from that build setup but you need to be super lucky to get the proper gear to even allow this play style to be viable. I just don't see the Undead lizards having a build that they can do better than anything else.

[KalkiKrosah]

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

Originally posted by LukanGamer:

honestly race other then elf's flesh sacrifice and of course undead in general have no real significent effect on build, I mean you would have to be 100% min-maxing for it to matter in slightest.

I think elf doesn't have much of an effect either, because it's pretty much equally good on any build. That would leave Undead as the only race that impacts your build really.

There's a few builds that don't mix well with certain races, elves included, though to a lesser extent than all the others.

Elves are the best race hands down and can do every role well. But the role they perform the worst at would be as a heal tank. Flesh sacrifice's free Action point is great no matter what build you use but the damage boost is wasted if you spend the action point spamming buffs and heals which don't benefit from the damage boost at all. Couple this with the lower constitution you incur from casting it (unequipping your shield in the process) and it is not a good synergy at all. Elves can work as a off-tank necromancer fighter where standing in a pool of blood lowers AP costs allowing you to spam attack moves right at the beginning and replenish magic armor with living armor as a talent, but its more of an offensive tank build.

Humans don't mesh well with being a rogue. Humans get an critical hit booster that, if you play a rogue as intended, will be wasted because back stabs are a 100% critical strike chance. That and encourage encourages a player to stay near the group in order to grant the buff to as many people as possible, which is not what a rogue is designed to do. Not to mention the 1 AP would be far more useful on a skill intended to nuke an enemies health bar into non-existence. Humans are designed to hit you in the face rather than stab you in the back.

Dwarves and archers do not mix well. Archers want to stay as far back from the fighting as possible. The dwarven racial ability is a touch range spell that would see sparse use as an "Oh ♥♥♥♥, he's too close" move. But the racial ability is magic and archers do physical damage a majority of the time and so the damage on petrifying touch would be negligible, not to mention the fact that it would be trying to strip the wrong armor type. And the dwarven boost to vitality makes it so a dwarf wants to get hit... but its pretty hard to get hit if you're far from the action like an archer is designed to be. The dodge is always helpful irregardless of whether you want to get hit or not so that part of the bonus is never wasted.

Lizards also don't make for great archers. Sophistacated's free poison and fire resistances will always be beneficial despite how low 10% ends up being in the grand scheme of things. It's dragon's blaze that is the real loss on an archer. Dragon's blaze is a short range cone spell that scales off of the pyrokinetic skill. Most archers focus on huntsman and warfare and should dragon's blaze get used, it won't be doing awfully much damage. And fire is not a great thing to have nearby you as an archer because once it burns out it creates a dense cloud of smoke you can no longer see through causing you to expend AP to move location to get a clear shot. I guess one elemental arrow shot could prove useful but its hardly worth using over an oil, poison or water infusion that is readily available and won't expire on you in the middle of a fight.

Undead anything makes for a bad tank. Tanks are meant to draw enemy attention and take damage. The AI regularly runs restoration in nearly every fight and, being on the front lines, an undead tank will be restoration spammed until a large portion of their armor is gone before round 2 even begins. One could argue that this makes it easier to kill enemies if they are expending healing spells in an offensive fashion but in an even fight your tank may be dead before he can even get around to buffing allies and crowd controlling enemies. Play dead could buy you time to get back your armor and your health but your allies will be scrambling for their lives while you hone your time to gain back your health. Not to mention the enemies cool down timers will be up and running by the time you start moving again to commence the process all over again.

I think any race can be a decent fighter if you can incorporate the necromancer and polymorph skill trees into the mix. And wizards have 4 schools of magic to choose. Lizards make the best pyrokinetic wizards, dwarves make the best geomancers and Beast is uniquenly one of the best aerothurge wizards but anything can work as a hydrosophist. Nothing really struggles as a mage.