How does Murga get so many actions?

[Lokiwolf90]

Before I even got the chance to fight back, she immediately killed one of my team mates.

[Azgardis]

It is scripted fight.
Some bosses / encounters designed this way:
1) they have enormous amount of ap points / very hard first initial strike;
2) they have enormous amount of initiative or just always go first.

[bullse]

Hint: you should be investing in Wits for virtually all your characters from the get go, just not on your main build stat (i.e.: str, fin, int). Mem as needed. Never had a problem with Murga because of continually investing in WITS.....

[Chaoslink]

Eh, investing wits on one character is good. Investing wits on all characters is a waste.

As for Murga... There's basically some enemies you'll face that function like they have the Lone Wolf talent, with bonus AP and the like. She's one of them.

[bullse]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Eh, investing wits on one character is good. Investing wits on all characters is a waste.

When you have two mages with high wits going back to back, in most of my experiences, they wreck before even being touched. Waste? Subjective to each their own. Do many honour mode no damage taken, no items/gear, no LW runs and WITS for initiative trumps all.

[baggybaf]

Originally posted by bullse:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Eh, investing wits on one character is good. Investing wits on all characters is a waste.

When you have two mages with high wits going back to back, in most of my experiences, they wreck before even being touched. Waste? Subjective to each their own. Do many honour mode no damage taken, no items/gear, no LW runs and WITS for initiative trumps all.

I agree with you.
to be the most effective it's necessary to start all the fights so investing on the WIT on 1 character is not "good" it's essential.
for example, the max level in initiative to start all the driftwood fights is 56 (with the red prince) and 52 otherwise. so if you have to sacrifice the damage to start the fight, it does not matter. that's why the ranger or the geo is a very good initiator.
then you need a good initiative for the other two characters that follow for alternate positions during the fight (focus on damage). the last player (the finisher) does not need to invest much in wit if you do the job before. a rogue is ideal as a finisher.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by bullse:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Eh, investing wits on one character is good. Investing wits on all characters is a waste.

When you have two mages with high wits going back to back, in most of my experiences, they wreck before even being touched. Waste? Subjective to each their own. Do many honour mode no damage taken, no items/gear, no LW runs and WITS for initiative trumps all.

Turns are round robin. So even if you have 80 initiative on every character, only one of them is going before an enemy. Stacking wits on one character for top initiative is worth it. Stacking wits on *all* characters for high initiative is incredibly dumb.

Only your highest initiative character matters. Initiative on the others only serves to control the order they appear after. So your main initiative can be 50, but your others can be 12, 11, 10 and it would be the same as them being 49, 48 and 47. However, wits isn't as important as str/fin/int and your team would be pretty weak with that much wits.

[baggybaf]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Turns are round robin. So even if you have 80 initiative on every character, only one of them is going before an enemy. Stacking wits on one character for top initiative is worth it. Stacking wits on *all* characters for high initiative is incredibly dumb.

Only your highest initiative character matters. Initiative on the others only serves to control the order they appear after. So your main initiative can be 50, but your others can be 12, 11, 10 and it would be the same as them being 49, 48 and 47.

I had not seen his first message. yes you are right even if:
- You must invest points to control the order of your characters (especially with mages) even if it's useless for the enemy order.
- Having a very good initiative may be good for the 2nd when your initiator dies (which should never happen if you know how to play) but when you increase the level it's important. (but no need to invest points)

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

However, wits isn't as important as str/fin/int and your team would be pretty weak with that much wits.

You exaggerate: total critical damages (after level 12) with fewer attributes is close if it stays balanced mainly with mages.
the proof: I solo the whole game by favoring the WIT

[BenSt88]

I'm going to avoid the debate on how many PCs sh/have high Wits and focus on a related question if we are only talking about 1 PC w/ high Wits. I understand why a ranger or geomancer would be a good candidate for the fight initiator, but I hadn't considered the rogue a good candidate to be a "closer". My current rogue (Sebille) is the high Wits PC, partly b/c she's up front w/ my melee R.P. and I want her to spot traps and hidden items, but partly b/c I'm used to traditional RPG thinking, where the rogue would be the quick-footed (high Dex) PC.

But this game breaks a lot of traditional RPG tropes, which is partly why I find it so refreshing. Anyway, by having her go 1st and go for the backstab often, really I'm just putting her in the thick of things prematurely. Do others use a rogue as a "closer" w/ low Wits?

I thought by focusing my main stat on the traditional 3, I could worry less about Finesse on Sebille and split that w/ Wits, b/c a lot of her dmg comes from backstab opportunities. Whereas for example w/ Lohse and elemental magic, I really want INT & Memory.

I'm playing on Classic, so I don't need optimized builds to survive Tactician...and it's my 1st playthrough so I'm still learning and trying to adapt my builds.

[baggybaf]

there are no rules: everyone can be an initiator or a closer
as for many things in the game, it depends if you attack primarily with physics or magic
I think the rogue is a good closer because it does a lot of damage without wits for the critical damage . if you want to put in your rogue in second or third position you are obliged to take into account the initiative of your teammates. so you can lose some power
the closer must weaken but not kill the enemy's initiator (or the second if the initiator is a boss.)
it can also be an initiator but it's a shame to lose power by putting in the wit that serves little for the damage with a rogue.
I like to put ranger in initiator because the wit is more natural for this job and the critical damage compensates the loss in pure damage rather quickly. and then he does physical or magic damage
the only things I can say is that you have to know the max initiative of the opponent and have an initiator that starts before the enemy
it's a guarantee to take a real advantage over the opponent
so you must have a character that favors wit to other attributes (str, fin, int)

[rasmasyean]

I actually put my rogue first. In Tactician at least (honour mode to add to that since you have to build some defense stats), I don't see how you can "finish" an enemy reliably in the first round unless I'm doing something really wrong. I found it possible however, in the case of an enemy starting close, I can take out armor enough for someone else to CC it later.

The other reason why I put the rogue first is because it can grenade to start a desired surface for Summoner or Geo to add to it. My thinking is that it helps set up the battle field a bit since I'm not real comfortable with moving the rogue really far way in the beginning since other than dodging, its the weakest (fineness armor). Lastly, there's also the option to go invisible. I my particular case I also have the option to use the human area buff (Loshe).

The other thing is that the Summon's seem to have high wit. So once the Summoner's (or other class summoning something is up), it would be more easy to design your next attack based on Elemental weakness if any.

I also have a sort of "Tank" unit, which I place last. I pumped Leadership in him and he's mostly good for CC'ing and absorbing hits. He doesn't always get focused on, but I think they do still try to kill him for the Leadership (or that he has the lowest resists or something, I dunno). He's pretty tough though, especially since everyone else can heal him too if his armor ups or whatever start to fade. I don't know...it might be a waste of turns to heal stuff that much, but for the most part, I seem to be abler to keep armor values up and not need that many Rez scrolls as I used to use I guess. :P

Well, that's my setup for now. I'm only level 13 so I haven't really seen most of enemies I take it, so this might or might not work forever. lol

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

I actually put my rogue first. ....-snip-

Just snipping the quote to keep it short.

I do the same with my rogues usually. Keep them back on the first turn to set things up for my team, then go in once the enemy has engaged. Its either that, or pop cloak to keep him safe.

However, I see you constantly making finesse out to have poor armor. While technically true, I'd argue that its better simply because you don't have that glaring weakness of one high armor and one low armor. Its actually the best armor to build a "tank" with because #1, tanks using one handed weapons are far better off using daggers for the use of scoundrel skills and the overall better damage output and #2, that higher magic armor on finesse armor keeps you more well protected than the higher physical armor of strength. Especially since you can use things like uncanny dodge to avoid that physical damage to begin with.

I can't think of a single reason (outside + carry capacity) to go 1h/shield STR versus dagger/shield Finesse. The finesse route is simply better from every angle.

[Emphasized]

I gotta disagree on the rogue being a "closer" and going last (in my experience). I've found that if my rogue has low wits, she usually gets hard focused in the first few enemy moves and get completely wrecked before she can move. I tend to at least give them enough wits to have a decent/good initiative, have her buff herself (clear mind, encourage etc), position herself in the enemy backline (mages/archers etc) and go invis with enough ap left to have max ap+adrenaline next turn to nuke at least one target without being hit. After that just have her evade or Skin Graft+invis again and reposition, rince repeat.
Then again, i might be a bit biased here 'cause i tend to put wits (not focus on, but give a what i concider a decent amount) on all my characters bacause i simply cant stand having no initiative or crit chance.I know you get crit chance without the wits, but a character without at least 20/25 base wits around end act 3 just doesnt feel right to me.

[rasmasyean]

Now if you go Dagger Shield for a Tank and use rear positioning, does this also often make your back more exposed to the AI? Does it matter which direction you face when you're attacked (by non-rogue enemies)?

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by rasmasyean:

Now if you go Dagger Shield for a Tank and use rear positioning, does this also often make your back more exposed to the AI? Does it matter which direction you face when you're attacked (by non-rogue enemies)?

Nope. Beyond backstabbing enemies, the direction you face doesn’t matter. The only effect that comes into play is the flanking bonus for having multiple enemies near you. There is no downside to dagger/shield compared to str weapon and shield. Dagger and shield does more damage, has a stronger magic defense with plenty of physical defense, has access to an entire skill set that str doesn’t, deals more damage and has more mobility through backlash. You can switch to a bow in a pinch, add a second dagger if you don’t need that durability during a fight... it just offers so much more without taking away much beyond a slightly lower damage tentacle lash and lower carry capacity.

[BenSt88]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

I can't think of a single reason (outside + carry capacity) to go 1h/shield STR versus dagger/shield Finesse. The finesse route is simply better from every angle.

Can I confirm we're still talking about a Rogue, and not a different melee PC? I thought w/ Rogue it was best to go w/ DW daggers, regardless of whether you put pts into DW the skill. I could easily be wrong on that.

The reason I ask is that my R.P. is sword/board, Polymorph/Warfare, STR for carrying capacity + dmg (such as it is...), and I wanted to make sure you weren't saying dagger/shield + Finesse + Scoundrel is what a 1-h. weapon build should be for melee types.