Am I doing this melee thing wrong?

[Liminullity]

So I'm running a mixed damage party. We're still on the island, level 7, Tactician, and I'm noticing the one build I'm trying hardest to follow a guide for is apparently the least effective of the party. It's a Blazing Deepstalker[fextralife.com], a Fin/Pyro 2h spearman.

It's supposed to take advantage of Explosive Traps, Enrage, Torturer and Savage Sort. for huge fire damage while maintaining physical damage through Finesse and Two-Handed (and a little Warfare). The concept seemed good, but right now he seems to be doing like 1/2 to 3/4 damage of my archer, and less than my Geo Mage and Summoner (who are better tanks, too, because they have shields).

I've only been able to afford a couple points in Two-Handed so far and I don't have the good Talents yet, but for physical damage he has equal Warfare to my archer, who is kicking ♥♥♥. Enrage only comes off cooldown every 5 turns so getting crits out is rare. It's not the absolute worst, but definitely not what I expected. Is this just how it's going to be, or am I doing this wrong?

[LaserGuy]

This build seems kind of suspicious to me, honestly. I haven't played this exact build before, so I can't say for sure how well it is supposed to work. Traps have always felt kind of mediocre to me, but I haven't done a focused build on them, so maybe there's something there. This does look like a very tactical build though... you probably need to play a certain way and organize your fights in a certain way to get maximum benefits.

You should not be putting any points into Two-Handed at this point. All of those points should be in Warfare. The damage scaling into Warfare is so much better than Two-Handed that you basically should have 10 points in Warfare before you even look at Two-Handed. That's probably a significant portion of what's limiting your damage potential. If you're using Enrage, you don't need the incremental extra crit compared to the damage bonus.

Note that Archers are basically the strongest damage class, so you're probably always going to be behind your archer in raw damage. Spears have somewhat lower base damage than other Two-Handers, but make up for it with extra range.

[edit]Also, this build clearly works best doing AoE damage. Any situation where you're facing a single target, your damage is almost always going to feel kind of low.

[Liminullity]

Yeah the traps have been okay situationally, but primarily I've been reliant on physical so far. I figured it's because I don't yet have the requisite talents and the Deploy Mass Traps skill.

Kinda sucks that archer is just objectively better with equal Warfare and similar base damage weapons. I guess there is some utility in terms of AoE, like you say, though. Whirlwind is doing decently for me, though sitting in the middle of a group I tend to get caught on fire/cc'd etc too quickly without the benefit of a shield or defensive spells.

[Chaoslink]

Try having the archer learn Venom Coating to use alongside Elemental Arrowheads. That extra hybrid damage should help. You're gonna see more effect later game when you have better skills and points to flesh this out better. Look for a spear with cleave. You also want someone with teleport to clump enemies together. Keep sparking swings up all the time you can and keep enemies near each other so the sparks hit more enemies. You'll also want to consider having this character stay back turn and save up a little AP. If you open up with 6 AP and use one for Tactical retreat to get in and the other to pop sparking swings to get 2 attacks off. Being an elf with flesh sacrifice would do wonders for popping sparking without losing an attack and if you can get adrenaline and executioner to get more attacks off when needed... It can work. You just can't rush in with this kind of build. It takes setting up.

[SenMithrarin85]

Just ignore fextralife's builds. Most are terrible in practice and some aren't even viable outside of lone wolf.

[gregfromthepeg]

I tried that build and re-speced him after Act 1 to necro/poly and ditched pyro. I couldn't get it to be any good. It turns out that build just sucks. Chaoslink mentioned sparking swings and venom coating. That is way better than the traps. There is a build on here called Fire Fury and it is far better than the Blazing Deepstalker. Check that one out. I am using it now and liking it way more.

[Greb]

Originally posted by SenMithrarin85:

Just ignore fextralife

Fixed that for you

[Liminullity]

Originally posted by gregfromthepeg:

It turns out that build just sucks.

I was afraid of that.

Well, I gave it a shot anyway. Honestly, I don't think I'm going to try and salvage it; I'll just use a different build. I'll give that Fire Fury a look. I was hoping to use spear or sword, not a staff for this character, so I might have to rethink things a bit more. That's okay. Maybe I'll go for something melee with necro. Only unfortunate thing is a lack of use for Dragon's Blaze in that case.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, everyone.

[gregfromthepeg]

Originally posted by Empitaph:

Originally posted by gregfromthepeg:

It turns out that build just sucks.

I was afraid of that.

Well, I gave it a shot anyway. Honestly, I don't think I'm going to try and salvage it; I'll just use a different build. I'll give that Fire Fury a look. I was hoping to use spear or sword, not a staff for this character, so I might have to rethink things a bit more. That's okay. Maybe I'll go for something melee with necro. Only unfortunate thing is a lack of use for Dragon's Blaze in that case.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, everyone.

I switch between staffs and dual swords for Fire Fury. Finding great staffs isn't common. So I sometimes use dual swords but with venom coating and sparking swings. Dual swords gives two sparks. This setup gives phys and magic damage. I keep both options. I put a few points into strength (mostly INT though) and then I can use gear that also increases my strength.

When I go staff, I have combined the staff with poison barrel to add poison damage. Then I use venom coating and sparking swings during battle for a ton of magic damage. It really means ypu need to get enemies fairly close together. It is a lot of fun, though. Just takes some getting used to.

[Mastigos]

Traps are devastatingly powerful. If you have access to Mass Deploy Traps and Deploy Trap and aren't successful, you're doing something wrong.

Keep in mind that detonating your own traps (as opposed to allowing them to activate and then explode via proximity) deals roughly 40% more damage, before all damage calculations. Thus is it critical to detonate them via fire (e.g. throwing them on burning ground, using Fireball) or earth spells (fossil strike, impalement). You'll get the absolute most mileage out of Impalement, provided that your targets take normal damage from Earth and your traps weren't detonated from burning ground.

Just for context: a detonated trap does as much damage as the direct damage portion of Fireball. Keep that in mind for later.
Now, the most potent spell as far as direct damage goes (besides 3 Source spells) is Closed Circuit. Eating Closed Circuit is like getting slammed by a dump truck.
With 40 intelligence and 11 Aero, Closed Circuit does ~360 damage (at level 10) which is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ massive.
At the same level, with 40 intelligence and 11 Pyro, Mass Deploy Trap does 160 x 4 damage.
That's 640 damage, same level, same int, and equivalent aero/pyro. (It's actually ~163.5 damage per trap, but whatever.)
So if 360 damage is like getting run over by a dump truck...
640 damage is like getting run over by a dump truck, then the dump truck goes in reverse and runs over another 75-80% of your body. You're die from massive trauma.

Oh, and traps have 4 chances to crit, do 15% more damage to burning targets (i.e. right off the bat with torturer), and can be thrown instead of having to be in Whirlwind range.

Traps are aresome. But think of them like grenades first and foremost, and traps as an extremely niche secondary function.

Also: be aware that some of the information in this thread is outdated. For example, someone said Archers are the highest DPS class-archtype in DOS2, which was true before the numerous nerfs. Nowadays, Archers are still strong, but start to fall off around mid game in favor of Mage-archtypes. Nothing is going to even come close to a Pyro/Geo Mage for spell damage, or a Blood Mage for physical damage, past Act 3. By the time you hit Arx, your Archers and Mages should swap positions; whereas your Archers carried the most weight and did the most damage early-mid game, late game your Mages will become your primary fighting force, and your Archers will be relegated to support. Or better yet, hit up that Mirror.

(You know it's bad when Huntsman 3 Source gets slammed with a 50% damage nerf.)

[Liminullity]

@Mastigos

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I know about the self-detonation of traps and the additional damage that causes, that's supposed to be part of the build. Part of the problem, as you said, is that I don't have Deploy Mass Traps yet.

Unfortunately, however, another issue here is that this character isn't stacking Int. He's stacking Fin. According to the build guide, (which may or may not be correct, I don't know) the build is supposed to work because traps scale with character level and Pyro only, leaving you free to stack Fin, which is what allows you to do physical damage with spears. It also encourages Two-Handed for Enrage, which as LaserGuy said, may be a problem. The whole idea is to be using those traps while being a physical fighter and not having to sacrifice phys damage by going Int.

Even if it could work, all that sounds rather complicated to pull off. So, while the traps might be okay, I think the build is probably still bad for me.

Also, interesting what you say about archers and mages. Right now, my archer's single-shot damage is great. I have a pyro/geo mage in my party, and he's doing alright. I also have a summoner, who seems to be doing pretty decent damage. In general it feels like AoE is king, so spells like Impalement and Fireball have been nice so far.

[hairyscotsman]

Fextralife builds are great inspiration, but surely weren't played from level 1 to 20 with those spec's.
I've currently got a hydro summoner, dual wielding sparker, a venom blading archer/spear and a necro/fire wizard on tactician. Most fun I've had so far.

[hairyscotsman]

Yes, you're 'dipping' to get those skills for the build, points that could otherwise be stacking in your damage. I agree it would probably work better after you've maxed out the damage points at higher levels and the mass traps is available. Taking 'dips' for things like sparks and venom gives a good trade off earlier on, but it depends on your overall party as well.