Why spears?

[YontEvnKnow]

Now that finesse no longer boosts dodge, is there any reason to not just use a str 2h?

[Full of Stars]

Because during the development, attributes were originally intended to give more bonuses than they ended up, with the developers cutting away a lot of complexity for the sake of getting a working game out the door.

Spears are probably a left over of some original design that would have given more of a point (see what i did there) to making a dedicated spear build.

[glythe]

Spears give longer range.

But they don't work with any extra damage scoundrel tools.

They scale with finesse instead of strength so they are nearly worthless compared to 2H weapons.

[Full of Stars]

The range thing is bogus. It rarely makes enough of a difference over a str based two hander to give up the damage, plus STR also gives more bonuses than Fin.

[Crow]

you can make a spear build that hurts incredily hard with Scoundril abilities although not backstab it will hurt a lot still.

A finesse build has the advantage of mobility while strength has the advantage of armor & carrying.

[Full of Stars]

Originally posted by Crow:

you can make a spear build that hurts incredily hard with Scoundril abilities although not backstab it will hurt a lot still.

Most scoundrel damage abilities specifically require daggers.

Str builds also get plenty of mobility from warfare, and polymorph is there for anyone.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by YontEvnKnow:

If all spears do is give a slight range advantage over a 2h strength based weapon, then you are trading range for attribute points that would probably be better spent elsewhere.

From what i could tell, all damage based skills in scoundrel require daggers, making the finesse scaling pointless. Please correct me if im wrong.

It seems that this weapon has no point in the game after the balance changes. Seems like an oversight. Perhaps if spears gave dodge. Sounds like something that would be nice to mod in.

It's almost double the range giving you a huge zone of a control. So basically.

Pros of str 2h;
-Increased carry capacity.
-Increased change of weapon upgrade drops (spears are rare compared to hammers,swords,axes)
-slightly better armor without having to spend the extra points in str to equip it.

Pros of spear;
-larger zone of control for opportunity strikes
-ability to attack over other enemies or allies to access enemies who might otherwise be blocked off
-ability to attack targets at a larger distance without having to move to reposition.

As for the scoundrel skills, you don't need to level up scoundrel, you'd level up with a spear the same way you would with a str 2h, putting points into warfare and two handed.

Also don't mind some of the people on this forum seem to start frothing at the mouth and become rabid at any mention of the word balance.

[Euphytose]

Originally posted by Tek:

My issue with this is that there's practically no spears anywhere to be found.

Agreed. That's what I noticed as well. Spears are very rare, and given that each item level boosts the damage by a lot, you'd be struggling to keep up.

[Full of Stars]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

It's almost double the range giving you a huge zone of a control.

In practice it's rarely an issue. The game has so many mobility options and teleports, a 2 hander never has trouble putting themselves in the middle of a group of enemies, and a 2h str weapon already has a huge reach. It's rare that you cant hit someone in a cluster of foes that would justify making a whole build around an otherwise inferior weapon choice.

Spears are just a leftover from an earlier design iteration of the game. Unless the attribute mechanics change, they should be probably removed from the game entirely.

[YontEvnKnow]

I would also say that in pros of str, you dont have to wear paper armor, or spend off stat points into str for armor.

[Euphytose]

How about spears come with a % of piercing damage (like elemental damage on STR) on them? Would you use them then?

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by zrt:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

It's almost double the range giving you a huge zone of a control.

In practice it's rarely an issue. The game has so many mobility options and teleports, a 2 hander never has trouble putting themselves in the middle of a group of enemies, and a 2h str weapon already has a huge reach. It's rare that you cant hit someone in a cluster of foes that would justify making a whole build around an otherwise inferior weapon choice.

Depends on your playstyle, maybe you'd prefer to give up those teleport skills that cost 1AP in favour of spending those points you had in memory onto more dps for a more melee centric party.

In practice loot drops and bagspace is rarely an issue too, so really its just a matter of choice. If your playstyle benefits from the pros i listed then go spears, if not go str.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by YontEvnKnow:

I would also say that in pros of str, you dont have to wear paper armor, or spend off stat points into str for armor.

Good point. I'll add that to the list.

[Full of Stars]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Originally posted by zrt:

In practice it's rarely an issue. The game has so many mobility options and teleports, a 2 hander never has trouble putting themselves in the middle of a group of enemies, and a 2h str weapon already has a huge reach. It's rare that you cant hit someone in a cluster of foes that would justify making a whole build around an otherwise inferior weapon choice.

Depends on your playstyle, maybe you'd prefer to give up those teleport skills that cost 1AP in favour of spending those points you had in memory onto more dps for a more melee centric party.

In practice loot drops and bagspace is rarely an issue too, so really its just a matter of choice. If your playstyle benefits from the pros i listed then go spears, if not go str.

A good two hander build doesn't require much memory, and can probably get by with the mobility options provided by Warfare if other people on your team are teleporting enemies to you.

When you're in the thick of a group of enemies it's almost impossibly rare that a two hander wont reach someone that wouldn't have been well out of range for a spear too. Combat just doesnt tend to work that way.

Str weapons are more abundant, and do more damage. Pack weight is just icing. Finesse spec has no particular strongpoints for two handers. Its a vestigial remnant of an earlier game design (one that I wish I was playing, rather than the simplified game we got).

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by zrt:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Depends on your playstyle, maybe you'd prefer to give up those teleport skills that cost 1AP in favour of spending those points you had in memory onto more dps for a more melee centric party.

In practice loot drops and bagspace is rarely an issue too, so really its just a matter of choice. If your playstyle benefits from the pros i listed then go spears, if not go str.

A good two hander build doesn't require much memory, and can probably get by with the mobility options provided by Warfare if other people on your team are teleporting enemies to you.

When you're in the thick of a group of enemies it's almost impossibly rare that a two hander wont reach someone that wouldn't have been well out of range for a spear too. Combat just doesnt tend to work that way.

Str weapons are more abundant, and do more damage. Pack weight is just icing. Finesse spec has no particular strongpoints for two handers. Its a vestigial remnant of an earlier game design (one that I wish I was playing, rather than the simplified game we got).

You seem to misunderstand me, I'm definitely not saying spears are better than or as strong as str 2h overall. Just that they both have points they are good at and under the right playstyle in the right circumstances you might get more use out of spears.

I played a spear build for a while and I clearly notice the range difference now which very often (at least once per fight) results in me having to spend 1ap, which means 1 less attack that round. Plus the range on skills is much larger too.

Ability range
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1147467264
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1147466440

Weapon range.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1147469539
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1147469805

You can clearly see the range difference between skills and autoattacks is fairly substantial. Covering a significantly larger area.

Edit; don't mind the gear and levels thats my save file from right at the start of act 2 so I can test builds with the mirror.

[Full of Stars]

@Fonglet

You keep making the point that the damage AOE range is much larger. Im not disputing that. I'm making the case that 95% of the time, it simply doesn't matter.