Backstab vs crit, scoundrel vs DW

[Nefarious7]

Wondering about a few things here...

Are backstabs auto crits, or do they crit on top of standard backstabs?

Basically wondering what's better, pumping DW or pumping Scoundrel.

5% damage, or increased crit multiplier?

I assumed my backstabs were crits, so I was pumping scoundrel for the multipliers.

TIA

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Originally posted by Prismbox:

That would mean that if you had 200% crit, 50% dmg bonus, and 100 base dmg it would equal 350 dmg with one backstab. I can tell you already that, that's not a thing. Plus you can already see that adding a point to DW will increase your damage stat in the attribute page. It's not done at the time of the attack.

total = base + (base * crit) + (base * damage)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.00) + (100 * 0.05)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus CRIT damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.05) + (100 * 0.00)

It's 205 either way.

It can't work this way otherwise the damage stat you see in the attribute page wouldn't reflect the increased damage when putting points in DW. I'm going to assume that the crit is added to that number since those are the number I'm seeing in my game.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by ReV0LT:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

total = base + (base * crit) + (base * damage)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.00) + (100 * 0.05)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus CRIT damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.05) + (100 * 0.00)

It's 205 either way.

Isn't damage bonus stacking with crit damage?
So 105 + (105 * 1.00) = 210?

I'm not sure, I'm not claiming its calculated the way I said it is, but in my experience looking at game files modding etc, thats almost always how they do the calculations.

I was just pointing out he shouldn't make the assumption that they do stack, unless someones actually tested it.

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by ReV0LT:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

total = base + (base * crit) + (base * damage)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.00) + (100 * 0.05)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus CRIT damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.05) + (100 * 0.00)

It's 205 either way.

Isn't damage bonus stacking with crit damage?
So 105 + (105 * 1.00) = 210?

Yes, it really wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Originally posted by ReV0LT:

Isn't damage bonus stacking with crit damage?
So 105 + (105 * 1.00) = 210?

Yes, it really wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

Personally I think it makes less sense for dual wield to give twice as much damage and dodge, and than the alternative which only gives a bit of extra movement speed. Again though definitely not claiming this is the way it is calculated. Just that it's a possibility unless someones tested it... actually I might test it now.

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Yes, it really wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

Personally I think it makes less sense for dual wield to give twice as much damage and dodge, and than the alternative which only gives a bit of extra movement speed. Again though definitely not claiming this is the way it is calculated. Just that it's a possibility unless someones tested it... actually I might test it now.

Yeah I hear you, gonna do some experiments myself for science! But I always assumed it work this way because the numbers I see really match. To me, it seems that base damage is increased by DW, since you see the dmg stat increase with every point invested in it and then the crit multi is stacked on top of that.
Also, don't underestimate movement speed; it's extremely powerful. Dodging is nice but as a rogue you have so many tools to escape and avoid being hit so it's second to movement for me.

[Fonglet]

Weirdly enough, I just tested 12 points in scoundrel, was doing around 30% more damage, than 12 points in dual wielding. Everything else was the same.

I was hitting for around 140 with 12 in dual weild
i was hitting for around 170 with 12 in scoundrel

[Wyrtt]

Originally posted by chrisheffner29:

^^^ THis guy has the point. Your weapon focus should be priority for any physically damaging character and then level up your Scoundrel on the side. Because the way it is, DW still scales up the damage of your abilities, though not as much as Scoundrel itself would.

EDIT: DW alsos improves your basic attacking, because to put it bluntly, late in the game, you won't always have the option to use an ability every turn. Wheras Scoundrel only focusses on abilities not just damages

this is absolutly untrue, Warfare gives you better bonuses to ALL aphysical attacks which makes it way more useful for physical attackers, Losing 5% of auto attack in favour of 5% everywhere is a better choice

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Weirdly enough, I just tested 12 points in scoundrel, was doing around 30% more damage, than 12 points in dual wielding. Everything else was the same.

I was hitting for around 140 with 12 in dual weild
i was hitting for around 170 with 12 in scoundrel

Does the bonus dmg from DW cap out at 10 maybe?

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Weirdly enough, I just tested 12 points in scoundrel, was doing around 30% more damage, than 12 points in dual wielding. Everything else was the same.

I was hitting for around 140 with 12 in dual weild
i was hitting for around 170 with 12 in scoundrel

Does the bonus dmg from DW cap out at 10 maybe?

Doubt it, I'm barely out of act 1, setting the cap now would be redic

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Does the bonus dmg from DW cap out at 10 maybe?

Doubt it, I'm barely out of act 1, setting the cap now would be redic

No I mean the bonus damage you get from DW. Having better weapons will give you more damage. It might be that the bonus you recieve from DW is capped at 10. Guess I'll have to try this myself.

Just tested it and according to the tooltip you still get bonuses from having more than 10 DW so I'm pretty stumped if your test was completely controlled and accurate. Would seem that neither of our assumptions are correct for calculating dmg.

It could also just be variance between hits. I mean my base damage is 113-131 so there's a lot of wiggle room there for one hit to do a bit more damage than the next.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Doubt it, I'm barely out of act 1, setting the cap now would be redic

No I mean the bonus damage you get from DW. Having better weapons will give you more damage. It might be that the bonus you recieve from DW is capped at 10. Guess I'll have to try this myself.

Just tested it and according to the tooltip you still get bonuses from having more than 10 DW so I'm pretty stumped if your test was completely controlled and accurate. Would seem that neither of our assumptions are correct for calculating dmg.

It could also just be variance between hits. I mean my base damage is 113-131 so there's a lot of wiggle room there for one hit to do a bit more damage than the next.

That was the average damage, I hit it 4 times each on both builds. Granted thats not a lot but enough to see. It wasn't totally controlled, I could have some sort of weird effects on gear or buffs I didn't notice, but one was definitely 12 dual weild 0 scound, and the other was definitely 0 dual, 12 scound.

Seems we were both wrong. I'lll have to do some more testing later to figure out exactly what's cuasing it.

[EcchiPoro]

why does no one talk about the movement distance buff you get... its amazing if you play lonewolf+ that one that gives you +2 ap when you kill somthing. Personaly i level scoundrel up a lot at the start until i dont need the extra movement anymore and then i pump everything into dual wield

[Nomad]

Originally posted by Nefarious7:

Wondering about a few things here...

Are backstabs auto crits, or do they crit on top of standard backstabs?

Basically wondering what's better, pumping DW or pumping Scoundrel.

5% damage, or increased crit multiplier?

I assumed my backstabs were crits, so I was pumping scoundrel for the multipliers.

TIA

Both DW and Scoundrel benefit each other. DW increases damage when using 2 weapons, increasing your damage on crits, scoundrel increase just your crit damage. It is completly fine to invest in them both.

[Gamebot]

base damage 100
base critical multiplier 150%


case 1) critical chance 0%
If you invest 10 points on DW, = + damage 50%
150 × 100% + 150 × 1.5 × 0% = 150

If you invest 10 points on SC = + critical multiplier 50%
100 × 100% + 100 × 2 × 0% = 100

→ Average damage of SC is 100 lower than DW



case 2) critical chance 25%
If you invest 10 points on DW = + damage 50%
150 × 75% + 150 × 1.5 × 25% = 168.75

If you invest 10 points on SC = + critical multiplier 50%
100 × 75% + 100 × 2 × 25% = 125

→ Average damage of SC is 43.75 lower than DW



case 3) critical chance 50%
If you invest 10 points on DW = + damage 50%
150 × 50% + 150 × 1.5 × 50% = 187.5

If you invest 10 points on SC = + critical multiplier 50%
100 × 50% + 100 × 2 × 50% = 150

→ Average damage of SC is 37.5 lower than DW



case 4) critical chance 100%, i.e. backstab
If you invest 10 points on DW = + damage 50%
150 × 0% + 150 × 1.5 × 100% = 225

If you invest 10 points on SC = + critical multiplier 50%
100 × 0% + 100 × 2 × 100% = 200

→ Average damage of SC is 25 lower than DW



Even in case4, even if you can backstab every enemy, SC inflicts less damage than DW. If the character is a pure dealer, DW is always better than SC. You should invest points on SC only if you need movement bonus or scoundrel skills. Otherwise, DW is better choice for a pure dealer.

[Rainy Skies]

Physical Damage seems to be calculated in this way.

Weapon Damage = Base
Damage stat (Finesse, Str, Int)
Weapon skill damage (two handed, two handed, ranged, dual wield)
Warfare
Crit modifier.

All of these sources are multiplicatively stacked onto eachother.

So assuming we have have 50 base damage, 2 ranged, 2 scoundrel, 2 warfare, 20 finesse, and the base 150 crit boosted to 160 from scoundrel, we will get this vallue.

50+10% (ranged) =55
55+10% (warfare) =60.5
60.5+50% (finesses) =90.75
90.75+60% (crit multiplier) =145.20