Backstab vs crit, scoundrel vs DW

[Nefarious7]

Wondering about a few things here...

Are backstabs auto crits, or do they crit on top of standard backstabs?

Basically wondering what's better, pumping DW or pumping Scoundrel.

5% damage, or increased crit multiplier?

I assumed my backstabs were crits, so I was pumping scoundrel for the multipliers.

TIA

[Cutlass Jack]

Any attack involving a dagger from the rear is a 'backstab' that automatically crits. That includes both normal attacks and any special moves.

DW is going to increase your base damage and dodge.

Scoundrel is going to make your crits larger and make it easier to position yourself.

Personally I focused more on DW, and raised Scoundrel as needed to match the level new skill books when they become available.

[Vicious]

Hmm, is DW a higher damage output than Scoundrel? If so, I may need to do some resping.

[Nomad]

^^^ THis guy has the point. Your weapon focus should be priority for any physically damaging character and then level up your Scoundrel on the side. Because the way it is, DW still scales up the damage of your abilities, though not as much as Scoundrel itself would.

EDIT: DW alsos improves your basic attacking, because to put it bluntly, late in the game, you won't always have the option to use an ability every turn. Wheras Scoundrel only focusses on abilities not just damages

[Nefarious7]

How do you guys know that 5% damage will be greater than 5% crit multiplier for backstabbing specifically? Has anyone run the math? I think it's more complicated than you guys are assuming.

[Cutlass Jack]

Originally posted by Nefarious7:

How do you guys know that 5% damage will be greater than 5% crit multiplier for backstabbing specifically? Has anyone run the math? I think it's more complicated than you guys are assuming.

Well without doing the math I can tell you that 5% damage will work on 100% of attacks. Even when you arent backstabbing or critting. And having a larger base damage number will make those crits larger too.

[Nomad]

Well I have run the math. Both my characters are level 18 on tactician mode and I've fiddled with both primary as scoundrel, and as DW. I get more overall damage with Dw than I do Scoundrel. I still elvel both, but my focus has been DW.

[Nomad]

And Exactly, higher base, is higher crit, no matter ho you look at it. Your weapon proficiency should be primary focus.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by Nefarious7:

How do you guys know that 5% damage will be greater than 5% crit multiplier for backstabbing specifically? Has anyone run the math? I think it's more complicated than you guys are assuming.

They're the same damage if you're critting 100% of the time. You start at 150% crit damage from crits and each time you put in a point it increase the damage by 5%.

Personally I prefer DW because I take wings in poly, you can move anywhere on the battlefield whenever you want and don't need to move at all thus dodge is better than movement and it's also better for the occasions when you can't back stab.

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by Nefarious7:

How do you guys know that 5% damage will be greater than 5% crit multiplier for backstabbing specifically? Has anyone run the math? I think it's more complicated than you guys are assuming.

Well let's do the math. We'll do it with easy numbers. Say you have 100 base damage and then add 5% base with DW - now you do 105 base dmg - if your crit multi % is 200 then your total will be 210 dmg on crit. Now let's do it the other way around. Again base damage 100 but you add 5% to crit multi on top of your 200% crit multi giving you 205% crit dmg - you will hit for a total of 205. So DW does win out and should be prioritized for damage.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Originally posted by Nefarious7:

How do you guys know that 5% damage will be greater than 5% crit multiplier for backstabbing specifically? Has anyone run the math? I think it's more complicated than you guys are assuming.

Well let's do the math. We'll do it with easy numbers. Say you have 100 base damage and then add 5% base with DW - now you do 105 base dmg - if your crit multi % is 200 then your total will be 210 dmg on crit. Now let's do it the other way around. Again base damage 100 but you add 5% to crit multi on top of your 200% crit multi giving you 205% crit dmg - you will hit for a total of 205. So DW does win out and should be prioritized for damage.

Unless bonus damage and crit are calculated separately and added together at the end. Which is how I assumed it was done like;

total = base + (base * crit) + (base * damage)

In which case they are both equal.

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Well let's do the math. We'll do it with easy numbers. Say you have 100 base damage and then add 5% base with DW - now you do 105 base dmg - if your crit multi % is 200 then your total will be 210 dmg on crit. Now let's do it the other way around. Again base damage 100 but you add 5% to crit multi on top of your 200% crit multi giving you 205% crit dmg - you will hit for a total of 205. So DW does win out and should be prioritized for damage.

Unless bonus damage and crit are calculated separately and added together at the end. Which is how I assumed it was done like;

total = (base * crit) + (base * damage)

In which case they are both equal.

That can't be right. That would equal way too much damage and I haven't seen those numbers with my rogue. The bonus damage just gets added to the damage number you see in your attributes tab and then the crit gets applied to that.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Unless bonus damage and crit are calculated separately and added together at the end. Which is how I assumed it was done like;

total = (base * crit) + (base * damage)

In which case they are both equal.

That can't be right. That would equal way too much damage and I haven't seen those numbers with my rogue. The bonus damage just gets added to the damage number you see in your attributes tab and then the crit gets applied to that.

It would equal less damage, or rather it would mean the damage is the same weather you add +5% damage or +5% crit. That almost always how games calculate damage values to prevent the thing which you posted above.

[Chitoloco]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Originally posted by Prismbox:

That can't be right. That would equal way too much damage and I haven't seen those numbers with my rogue. The bonus damage just gets added to the damage number you see in your attributes tab and then the crit gets applied to that.

It would equal less damage, or rather it would mean the damage is the same weather you add +5% damage or +5% crit. That almost always how games calculate damage values to prevent the thing which you posted above.

That would mean that if you had 200% crit, 50% dmg bonus, and 100 base dmg it would equal 350 dmg with one backstab. I can tell you already that, that's not a thing. Plus you can already see that adding a point to DW will increase your damage stat in the attribute page. It's not done at the time of the attack.

[Fonglet]

Originally posted by Prismbox:

Originally posted by Fonglet:

It would equal less damage, or rather it would mean the damage is the same weather you add +5% damage or +5% crit. That almost always how games calculate damage values to prevent the thing which you posted above.

That would mean that if you had 200% crit, 50% dmg bonus, and 100 base dmg it would equal 350 dmg with one backstab. I can tell you already that, that's not a thing. Plus you can already see that adding a point to DW will increase your damage stat in the attribute page. It's not done at the time of the attack.

total = base + (base * crit) + (base * damage)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.00) + (100 * 0.05)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus CRIT damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.05) + (100 * 0.00)

It's 205 either way.

[ReV0LT]

Originally posted by Fonglet:

Originally posted by Prismbox:

That would mean that if you had 200% crit, 50% dmg bonus, and 100 base dmg it would equal 350 dmg with one backstab. I can tell you already that, that's not a thing. Plus you can already see that adding a point to DW will increase your damage stat in the attribute page. It's not done at the time of the attack.

total = base + (base * crit) + (base * damage)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.00) + (100 * 0.05)

Assuming 200% crit damage, and +5% bonus CRIT damage
205 = 100 + (100 * 1.05) + (100 * 0.00)

It's 205 either way.

Isn't damage bonus stacking with crit damage?
So 105 + (105 * 1.00) = 210?