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Warriors are OP in both games, I don't see them as weak at all, they're what I normally play as and they can gang just about any mage.
No, but I remember when summoners could be a threat, now they're weak.
So would I, moreover, I'd put my money on any half decent melee warrior against any amount of summons on a timer.
Quite the opposite. All my main characters have been heavy Melee builds, I've only built a few mages, two in WBC2 and like three of four in WBC3 some time ago. My best mage ever was a pyromancer, he was like the ultimate support unit.
But the single best strategy to win for me has always been to Zerg Rush with weaker cheaper units that can be easily amassed at low tech levels in endless waves and use heroes and sometimes companion units to do the heavy hitting, teching up slowly and breaking mines whenever it's time for an upgrade.
Oh I agree a mass swarm of Succubi are a much more serious threat, TheSpaniard however talked about how Summoners were powerful because he could summon like five daemons every five minutes, which just about made me laugh.
Yeah that'd be handy I guess, IMO it'd be better flood the sky with imps, that's what I'd do anyway, everytime I've ever played with the Daemon Race I did well with imp zergs. They're really underestimated due to their low attack damage and how fragile they are but in large groups they're a fast flying swarm of trouble if used right.
I don't know, I guess ten points in strength and dex could make a mage able to at least keep his distance and take a couple of hits, but if a high level warrior or combat rogue got in melee range it seems like it would still be over fairly quickly. A hero with 10-15 strength and dexterity doesn't seem likely to outrun or outlast a hero with 25+ points in both unless they have some seriously nasty tricks up their sleeve.
HAH!
Daemons were used for chaos and had flying to survive a few good hits.
Doom Knight same thing chaos and had good armor to survive a few good hits.
Lich kinda needed late game for undead team but otherwise not that useful.
Shadows were used in swarms to make powerful retinue units.
Succubi are weak unless they are above level 1
Vampires meh average at best apart from bats.
Sprites were cute not a big threat
Unicorns were a cheap healer that was mass produced late game
Treants were a tough unit that doubled as a builder but not that powerful
Elementals were usually considered a bad unit to summon but were useful as a siege unit.
Summoned mage generals are useful but cost more than any other summon
Bronze golems are nasty but slow and easy to counter
Zombies anyone can get them if not using a temporary hero from items.
Quasits are just like zombies.
Skeletons are easily countered by most other troops just don't leave your towers alone with piercing damage
Imps are kinda weak best used to smash buildings or harrass those without good anti air.
Wights for the amount they cost were a bit of a joke.
Stone golems were tough but very slow and cost 2 command points
It takes a level 20 roughly 2-3 minutes to summon one powerful unit. These things can easily be killed by a garrisoned tower and were no match for an army late game. Early game if people used their mana potions just fall back and build up the tech tree more. Mana potions cannot be replaced in most maps and often are used in a powerful chain of magic.
Unless enhanced beyond the basic spell level all summons were weak. Never neglect intelligence or your army will suffer and you can use very basic magic from items to assist you early on. Temporary heroes are terrible as they have no items and are generally just there to test magic.
High level summons were mainly there is give things your army would not be able to get. Healing units are very valuable, so are status effects, an extra general early on allowed easier capturing of resource points and summoned workers could either build a foward base or fill mines. Try thinking what is my army missing when using summons or even a retinue of units. Odds are you can cover a major weakness such as the High elves not producing any mine workers. Grabbing extra units that your army can make just saves a small amount of resources.
It is usually good to grab a few cheap troops if lacking cure methods to deal with swarm troops like that. When the spider eggs hatch if you let them kill your troops then you may have a problem as you could be facing much more than 16 spiders. This could be considered similar to although weaker than succubi with daemons. Poison touch can allow most of your units to poison so there are worse things that could be attacking you.
Call of Kargoth is more like several weaker summon spells but has to be done in bulk and requiring a high skill level to cast. It unfortunately doesn't offer much to your army as it requires so much mana to cast and doesn't support you at all apart from numbers. I personally see it as almost as bad as summon wight and summon imp because the player already has poison touch which allows all melee troops to inflict poison in addition to their normal attacks. Most melee troops can negate almost all of a spiders damage with armor leaving poison as the only reason to take Call of Kargoth apart from scouting or a distraction.
When you look at other summon spells it just doesn't measure up in power and the units are disposable not worth keeping around for a long time. If someone fears spiders however building a swarm to overwhelm them for an entertaining reaction... maybe.
Summoning IMO is generally worthless against any good melee build, I mean for what you spend in mana, you're really not getting your money's worth if your summons are on a timer keeping you from building up.
But not so with that spell, the sheer numbers, the fast move speed, the PIERCING damage, the poison, it's too much. Daemons I can handle, but those spiders are scary.
And I'm not just saying that caus I'm arachnaphobic!
lol
Call of Kargoth is a quick instant swarm spell still good after the unofficial patches and wasps can also be good with assassinate on air targets. Still not great for a melee build but it does have it's uses. Other magics still have better options most of the time still but these will not last long anyway may as well give them some venom to remember you by. Still not overpowered but I love the reactions players have when their lone warrior runs into them. Summons aren't overpowered unless you don't have your own army to counter them and there are other ways to counter melee builds should you need them.
If you think of it as an easy button you obviously don't understand the game.
Take a race with tough units and give them healers.
Take a race with slow build up early game and give them necromancy.
Take a race filled with swarming units and give them chaos.
Take a race without siege equipment and use tough summons as a battering ram
This was not a rush mechanic but an army support magic focused on covering major weaknesses your army may have. Should you play with extreme level characters you are asking for no mercy so don't whine about high level summoners actually making a powerful army. The only difference now is instead of building in power as the game progresses they very quickly cap out their summons by around mid tech level rather than if being careful building in power as the game progresses. Since the summons don't last forever they will send the summoned units to their doom before the timer expires.
People are generally terrible at anti rush tactics never using any early warning system to warn their hero that you are about to attack. Mages cannot afford to go far away from base early on as their army just cannot defend their keep alone. Warriors and other melee builds can afford to go further away from base maybe even raid mines. Should you be unable to get enough resources to get to at least a level 3 keep before the mage can create swarms without mana potions you are doing something wrong. Eventually every character will need some form of magic from either racial skills or items and not having some intelligence is going to get you killed by human players.
Should you want to put everything into strength and dexterity you rely on rush tactics. If your rush attack fails to deal enough damage you may have lost the skirmish already. Making a powerful hero good at one thing is easy but creating a hero useful at more than one tactic takes a bit of work.
Warriors are good early game with their basic skills used to stop expansions and crush most units however their power is short lived as people soon build units that can actually threaten them. Mages around mid keep level surpass melee builds as they gain casting improvements with some races or gain enough mana (including potions) to destroy an army/base. Finally the leader type heroes take the lead as the can produce bigger armies, earlier titans and maybe even afford a few dragons to help out should they survive that long.
People are not complaining just because they find the timers annoying but how is summoning meant to remain compeditive late game? Melee focused heroes start to get healers, Mages can get powerful area effect spells capable of killing entire armies and Leaders have discounts with decent magic to back them up. Summoners however get told they need to kill their pets on a regular basis rather than building up a nasty suprise of powerful troops which is hardly fair.
Since the timers were focused on heroes wouldn't it have been smarter to build in a mana drain (harder to program I know) to maintain control or even if you managed to kill the summoner you lost control over all summoned units. Players could already also use poison gate, corruption, freeze magic or a few other spells to distrupt summoners. There were already ways to counter them but nothing barring a titan was more powerful than a hero.
And then You Die!
Seriously a mage walking into a warrior's base? That's like seppuku.
Oh you're talking about playing against the AI. That makes things different. I was assuming the warrior was another player.
Because another player wouldn't be too bothered by this scenario, if they've already played a few matched they'll likely already have a thrall stashed away to rebuild somewhere, they can one man charge your hero and just disregard all your summons, and they can shatter your mines to get resources.
Your hero would be down pretty fast, and once it was down, the summons would pose no threat and the warrior could just conquer the hero'less army.
I disagree about warriors mid/late game weakness, I've always played a warrior and they become like God Tier Units if built right, it's like having a Titan, right at the start of the match, better than that even.
I also have to say that potions are not sustainable, you run out of them and have no means to replace them, so while they're good in a pinch once they're burned they're gone.
I agree with everything you said about leader mages and summoners though.