[Spoiler] Everybody Hates Chris

[ThatDarnDog]

So, first of all, I made a video I'd like to share.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdoUGKknJu4

I've been recording the footage for it for a few weeks now, recording all my SP games and whatnot. I did this mostly to in respounse to the the many conversations I've had with other players about Chris. Now, I love to talk about Chris. She's my main character, and I love playing her. But everytime I start to talk with people, the things they never sit right with me. I don't want to say they are 'playing her wrong'. But the way I play her feels very natural to her.

This is what I think Chris is/ is good at

-Chris is a character that excells at dealing with 'a lot' of enemys. She is best when dealing 'widdle' damage to multiple oppenents. However, the less enemys focuses on her, the less effective she becomes. She's the queen of pot shots, and sucker punchs to enemys that aren't expecting it. If you notice in the video, it's much more rare for be to outright finish off an enemy, as it is for them to simply 'drop off' durring the fight.

-Chris excells at crowd control, and keeping enemys grounded.

-Chris has a strong combo, that is hard to land, and dangerious to attempt because of it's speed and lack of forward momentum. I think this is where a lot of people give Chris a bad rap. They see her punch does 24 omg dmg and they want to punch -everything- all the time. But what they don't understand is that her true strength isn't in her combo, but in her spiecals. Trying to use her combo at the wrong time will get you flogged every which way.

- Chris is weak against single, powerful enemys that she can't outright kill in one combo string, like most bosses. Which is why most tend to cheese them to death using the endless bulldog.

- Chris has difficult, reactionary juggles that could be used to be great against single enemys, but are incredibly hard to master.



So, anyway, time for some Chris conversation. I love her, but, like a lot of other characters, she needs some TLC. So, I figured I'd share my thoughts on what I think she needs, and everyone else can jump in and give thier two cents. I know that the 'character pass' might be a ways off, what with the dev's focusing on bugs. But, if they do happen to do it, I wouldn't mind putting in my 2 cents aside from the 'fix wrecking ball' thing.

So here goes.

Stuff I think Chris needs

Fixed wrecking ball
A number of ways have be sugguested, and many more ways could be thought up. But, it just needs.. something..



OTG running kick in place of ground bulldog:
Now, here I might get a little flak. I think the endless bulldog needs to be fixed. Others have mentioned it. And, yeah, it needs to go. But here's the thing. Part of my play style, revolves around having Bulldog keep it's OTG properties. As I said, Chris is fantasitc as crowd control. And being able to 'move' enemys on the ground to cluster them together is a 'large' part of what I think makes her cool. So, I'd like to see the Bulldog loose it's OTG properties, but I'd also like a move to replace that role of being able to 'push' enemys on the ground.

http://i.imgur.com/lclUUZp.gif

I sugguest that this move, be given OTG properties instead. And for it to force the enemys on the floor to move a similar distance as when kicking the trashcan. I really love this kick, but the fact of the matter is, on higher difficulties, you will nearly always get stuck before the kick actually lands, making it almost usless (Unless you count it being in a combo). I think it would be a good replacement and hella fun to just run up and kick a downed enemy and have them roll/slam into thier buddies on the floor just in time for some Chrisoken fire baking. I also would love if this move actually hit people in the air <.< I've tested it, and I swear it doesn't hit airborn enemys.

I think this would be a nice 'quick fix' that would actually make her more awesome, and less ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ty.



Chrisoken tweak
I would like Chrisoken to still be able to be executed even after a jump attack. So that one could say Jump Punch on the way up, Chrisoken, and then jump kick on the way down.



A quick decent move Something to get her to the floor quicker after hitting an enemy with a Chrisoken so she can enter into a juggle. I don't think she needs 'easyer' juggles than Pobeb's Juggle, but I would like more ways to enter enemys into a juggle state. Something like Alex's kneedrop, or his flying man downward jump punch thingie.






Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm curious to know what others think of my thoughts, and of my video.

[metaphist]

Originally posted by Chris Dragon:

The issue with Chris and Rudy is that to a lot of people they're not fun enough to learn. THAT is an issue.

I don't see that as an issue.

In a game with 9 characters, if you are properly varying the play styles between them, there are inevitably going to be characters that are difficult and, therefore, "not fun". If there aren't difficult characters in the game, there's either not that many, or they all play similar.

Furthermore, since fun is subjective, I can argue that the difficult characters are MORE fun in my eyes, since there is a non-obvious puzzle to solve there. People like me find Glen immediately boring because his move set is so straightforward. Therefore Glen is not fun while Chris and Rudy are the most fun.

Unfortunately, most people replace "difficult" with adjectives like "suck" when describing these characters. Not wanting to spend the time is fine, but confusing the learning curve as bad design is shortsighted. That's why I'm glad to see threads like "How do you play character X?" instead of threads like "Character X sucks".

[ThatDarnDog]

Originally posted by metaphist:

Originally posted by Chris Dragon:

The issue with Chris and Rudy is that to a lot of people they're not fun enough to learn. THAT is an issue.

I don't see that as an issue.

In a game with 9 characters, if you are properly varying the play styles between them, there are inevitably going to be characters that are difficult and, therefore, "not fun". If there aren't difficult characters in the game, there's either not that many, or they all play similar.

Furthermore, since fun is subjective, I can argue that the difficult characters are MORE fun in my eyes, since there is a non-obvious puzzle to solve there. People like me find Glen immediately boring because his move set is so straightforward. Therefore Glen is not fun while Chris and Rudy are the most fun.

Unfortunately, most people replace "difficult" with adjectives like "suck" when describing these characters. Not wanting to spend the time is fine, but confusing the learning curve as bad design is shortsighted. That's why I'm glad to see threads like "How do you play character X?" instead of threads like "Character X sucks".

I don't see this as completely 'short sighted', as something of a 'lack of faith'. Running with your professed love of puzzles, I'll use that as an example as to what I mean. So, say there's a puzzle, in a... saaay.. zelda style game that you can't immidiatly solve. This, from your perception, is a difficult puzzle, but your enjoyment hinges on there being an answer to that puzzle, and one that you can eventually figure out, perhaps with that oh so rearding 'ah ha!' moment. But theres a faith there. An understanding. There's no question that it can be solved as you're attempting to solve it. But, if there were, then the process of trying to work it out becomes more and more frustrating s every failed attempt at solving it makes that doubt grow and grow.

I see this as a common problem in many gamers now a days. Now, I don't mean the gamers directly, but more how we as gamers, view games. With so many small dev teams now a days falling drastically short of thier intended vision; and with so many games being pushed out earlywith game breaking bugs;- players who frequently purchase and play these creations, tend to become cynical towards thier view of games being funtional. When a character, mechanic or game system goes outside the norm, and isn't readily understood, it's a safer bet to assume it's bugged or broken, than it is something inovative that simply needs time and effort to be understood.

Chris has this problem on a number of fronts. For one, the game itself had a rocky start, not to mention she, herself, who was released in highly bugged, nearly unplayable state. Right there, that is already a pcyological strike against her in the minds of most players. She is also unlocked in the third act, post tower, which again, has a number of radical shifts in mood and change that are disheartening to the player. The AI's jump is radical, or at least it was durring my first play through, not sure if that's the same now. The tone changes, the story seems to spiral off in a crazy, near rediculous direction.

All these things couple, and enforce that 'lack of believe' that seems to circle not only Chris, but other things in the game, such as the 'terrible AI'. Part of the reason I started this thread was to sort of 'restore faith' that peoples impressions might be a little hastey. Like I mentioned before, once someone sees that it can be done, and that it can be done effectivly, they see a goal to shoot for. They have faith the puzzle can be solved. Now they can focus on solving it.




Overall, I think this game is freaking rad. If this game did have 'non blocky/dodgy ai', and 'similar characters', I'd have probably chewed it up and spit it out by now.

[Lazy Joe]

Please make end game combat video with any character against "greys" and agents before i give up on this game.

[ThatDarnDog]

Originally posted by Neeto Joe:

Please make end game combat video with any character against "greys" and agents before i give up on this game.

Like a pve guide? I'm actually working on one, if that's what you mean. But it's a time consuming process, trying to get it all on paper.

[Chris Dragon]

Originally posted by K-Frog:

Originally posted by Neeto Joe:

Please make end game combat video with any character against "greys" and agents before i give up on this game.

Like a pve guide? I'm actually working on one, if that's what you mean. But it's a time consuming process, trying to get it all on paper.

The issue is that when the Greys show up, the AI spike in difficulty is intense, so to 'prove' that Chris is useful, how good she is against them is important to Neeto Joe.

[Streetwize]

He did that a few posts above.

[Chris Dragon]

Originally posted by Streetwize:

He did that a few posts above.

I believe that Neato Joe would like video evidence.

Bear in mind, I'm not for nor against Chris. I'm not a fan of her charge attacks, but she's playable. I rather like her, but I won't say she's 'good'.

[Streetwize]

Originally posted by K-Frog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWXLhoocZgM&feature=youtu.be

I'm neutral on her myself. I don't like how her strikes feel, and the way each charge window is different makes her inconsistent. Hell, you can let go of a button and quickly repress it and it'll still count as a charge.

[Chris Dragon]

Originally posted by Streetwize:

Originally posted by K-Frog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWXLhoocZgM&feature=youtu.be

I'm neutral on her myself. I don't like how her strikes feel, and the way each charge window is different makes her inconsistent. Hell, you can let go of a button and quickly repress it and it'll still count as a charge.

And you nail it. She feels inconsistent. I don't mind that she's slow, she hits like a truck, but her timing is all over the place.

[ThatDarnDog]

Um, I have to assume he wasn't asking for evidence, as much as a 'how to'. I mean, I just posted 'evidence', and one would hardly quit from lack of it.

Anyway, I am working on a PvE guide tailored toward players having trouble combating the ai in late game.

Mostly it will center around openers, enemy behaviour, need to know game mechanics that are easily missed, and stuff like that.

[ThatDarnDog]

Hm, I was purposely not including any greys or agents in it for spoilers sake, using new game + difficulty to compensate for it like I did in the first vid. But, looks like I may need to reconsider that.

There's that 'lack of faith' I was talking about.

[Lazy Joe]

I just generally wanna see how skilled players deal with endgame mobs, i dont even care about chris, thats why i said "with any character".

Im pretty much done with this game, i mean nerve-wise. We are at patch #9 and all the major flaws are still present, unable to chain combos of some characters, cheap ass AI, unclear instruction for movelist.

I havent touched this game for almost a month now out of frustration and i am stuck at the endgame elevator part. Now i just want someone to drag me through the story so i can unlock the new game+ and never play the whole story line ever again. I love river city ransom as a whole, but now i hate this game in particular. I just consider myself an average gamer, im not super good at this kind of game, also not super bad. But this game makes me look like an idiot.


I played with chris for maybe 10 seconds, ever, right after she was unlocked in the story (i would have never gotten even to that part without a skilled player dragging me through the game). Because i punch enemy once and it pushes them out of range for another hit. They beat me up to the point that chris turned red... cool, still unable to hit anyone...

[ThatDarnDog]

That's understandable, bud. A lot of people have trouble with the ai.

As mentioned, there is a video up top of me fighting end game ai.

Talking about uncertain chains.. you main as Paul?

[Lazy Joe]

Originally posted by K-Frog:

That's understandable, bud. A lot of people have trouble with the ai.

As mentioned, there is a video up top of me fighting end game ai.

Talking about uncertain chains.. you main as Paul?

You remember i posted a thread like maybe almost a month ago, titled "the difficulty, man!"

Paul feels pretty good from the beginning. Before even playing the game, from just watching the trailer, i always wanted to go with glen simply because he looked cool, hopping around as if he practices jeet kun do, selected paul by mistake because i wasnt familiar with the buttons, rolled with it, beat abobo's ass without a sweat. But yeah, later, the knockback and the AI combined makes the game unenjoyable.

Still, i bought 2 copies just 3 days ago for 2 friends of mine, we still played together and it was still fun, for the beginning part at least.

[Lazy Joe]

Originally posted by K-Frog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWXLhoocZgM&feature=youtu.be

Ok, crazy. So the majority of the time is spent in midair, thats a playstyle i still havent gotten used to.