Enemy scaling

[bitmapkid]

From what I've experienced, it seems like there's some sort of enemy scaling in the game but I'm not sure exactly how it works. Is this documented somewhere?

I really hope there's some sort of level range per zone or something like that because I don't feel like having the enemy always matching my level wherever I go.

[Geek]

It is a bit complicated.

Mission spawns scale strongly, no matter where you are.
Random patrols depends (mostly) on area.
Fleet spawns depend on fleet size.
Conquest spawns depends (mostly) on attack type (outpost, station, planet).

[bitmapkid]

Thanks for the info.

This is actually the perfect kind of enemy scaling for me: it scales the missions and the overall fleet opposition but it maintains a specific difficulty per area for when I solo the game.

[joamsons]

Originally posted by bitmapkid:

I really hope there's some sort of level range per zone or something like that because I don't feel like having the enemy always matching my level wherever I go.

When I explore a less powerful territory, I find easy enemy targets. Capturing upgraded garrisons is quite harder. I don't think there is enemy scaling to your current level.

[Knightingale]

Originally posted by Geek - Gemini Warlord:

It is a bit complicated.

Mission spawns scale strongly, no matter where you are.
Random patrols depends (mostly) on area.
Fleet spawns depend on fleet size.
Conquest spawns depends (mostly) on attack type (outpost, station, planet).

So missions can be gamed by not leveling up and not upgrading the ship?
I seriously hate this in games today. It takes me out of the game when I can go into a station, take off all but one weak gun, then exit and kick ass because suddenly enemies are all weak again and my hull or shields are still beyond them. It's all trial and error to find that line where the AI upgradese don't trigger. So you get 99% to that line and never cross it.
Makes the universe feel dead. Like everything revolves around me.

[[LGM] Phoenix]

There's no easy way for gaming the system, because there are ton of active and passive ways over which you obtain experience. You could possibly only prolong that way of playing, but you will eventually have to upgrade and adapt. :)

[Knightingale]

Originally posted by LGM Phoenix:

There's no easy way for gaming the system, because there are ton of active and passive ways over which you obtain experience. You could possibly only prolong that way of playing, but you will eventually have to upgrade and adapt. :)

Yes but what I mean is this...
In many space games I get the following experience:

I want to grind to get x amount of mined ore in my big cargo ship "The Panty Liner". But I have the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" equiped to my 'Panty Liner' for protection.
I clearly notice as soon as I put the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" on my "Panty Liner" then all of a sudden the enemies that spawn in the asteroid fields are now equipped with the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun"
And everyone knows the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun" is 1 shot 1 kill on "Panty Liner" ships.

So I remove the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" and I no longer die from 1 shot. In fact I find that I can tank with shields and kite the enemy while I mine for ore.
All because of my choice of weapon.

Anything even remotely close to that makes me ALT F4 and refund.
I don't even want to waste my download time if that is what this game does in any way.
Because my brain WILL find those immersion breaking patterns.

I want to love the universe you guys made. Not hate it because of this old mechanic that needs to die and burn to 'Oblivion'

[Geek]

It is based on your level, not your loadout.
As Phoenix said above, you can not avoid gaining xp and thus leveling.

[[LGM] Phoenix]

Originally posted by Robo Hobo:

Originally posted by LGM Phoenix:

There's no easy way for gaming the system, because there are ton of active and passive ways over which you obtain experience. You could possibly only prolong that way of playing, but you will eventually have to upgrade and adapt. :)

Yes but what I mean is this...
In many space games I get the following experience:

I want to grind to get x amount of mined ore in my big cargo ship "The Panty Liner". But I have the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" equiped to my 'Panty Liner' for protection.
I clearly notice as soon as I put the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" on my "Panty Liner" then all of a sudden the enemies that spawn in the asteroid fields are now equipped with the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun"
And everyone knows the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun" is 1 shot 1 kill on "Panty Liner" ships.

I want to love the universe you guys made. Not hate it because of this old mechanic that needs to die and burn to 'Oblivion'

This should not be the case in our game. Any ship can have any weapon, though it might be hard to maintain the energy needed to fire some better weapons on smaller ships, but the enemies won't suddenly, and out of nowhere counter you. Once you start leveling up, the parts of the universe will level up with you and will fire at you with big guns no matter what you have equipped at that moment. :)

[Oluja]

Originally posted by Robo Hobo:

Originally posted by LGM Phoenix:

There's no easy way for gaming the system, because there are ton of active and passive ways over which you obtain experience. You could possibly only prolong that way of playing, but you will eventually have to upgrade and adapt. :)

Yes but what I mean is this...
In many space games I get this experience:

I want to grind to get x amount of mined ore in my big cargo ship "The Panty Liner". But I have the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" equiped to my 'Panty Liner' for protection.
I clearly notice as soon as I put the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" on my "Panty Liner" then all of a sudden the enemies that spawn in the asteroid fields are now equipped with the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun"
And everyone knows the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun" is 1 shot 1 kill on "Panty Liner" ships.

So I remove the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" and I no longer die from 1 shot. In fact I find that I can tank with shields and kite the enemy while I mine for ore.
All because of my choice of weapon.

Anything even remotely close to that makes me ALT F4 and refund.
I don't even want to waste my download time if that is what this game does in any way.
Because my brain WILL find those immersion breaking patterns.

I want to love the universe you guys made. Not hate it because of this old mechanic that needs to die and burn to 'Oblivion'

Hi Robo Hobo,

like you I'm also a gamer, and indeed I hate it when the enemies scale as I get something new and better on my character. Escpecially since the only reason I got that something better, was to have an easier time with the pesky enemies.
I can tell you that in Starpoint Gemini Warlords we utilize different approaches to determine strength of enemies.
We have static enemies which are almost always the same strength.
Example of this is that around Mining Operation Tier 1, you'll find enemies always around the same strength, while around Mining Operation Tier 2, you'll find harder enemies, since one of the benefits of the Tier2 mining operation is better security force.
This is true for the most part of the game, since it follows this philosophy.
However, some of the enemies scale with the player, and I'd ask you to think about it for a bit why that is so.
There are several reasons for it:
1) We want to provide the player with challenges that are fun, and that is something having to struggle a bit, and other times is to decimate enemies.
2) If for instance in the real world, you have a small criminal, you send the police to handle the situation, if you have an armed robber, you send better equipped police, so that the police doesn't get hurt. If you have robber with a car, police also comes with the car, because surely they will have easier time to handle the robber if they have a car than if they didn't have a car. And if there is a dude with a Tank, you wont send the police to handle him, you'll send your military to handle the situation, because they are better suited for the task at hand.
- So while I also sometimes feel like the AI is cheating when it scales with me in games, I actually understand the logic behind why it works that way sometimes, and it stopped bothering me, since it makes sense.
3) Plus side is, player has an advantage against most of his enemmies, since he can use skills, perks, and lots of other stuff, AI doesn't have so not only will you decimate your opponents, you'll also do it in different spectacular ways.

Well thats atleast how I see it, I'd love to hear what you think about some of this.

Have a great time in Gemini :)

[Oluja]

Originally posted by Geek - Gemini Warlord:

It is based on your level, not your loadout.
As Phoenix said above, you can not avoid gaining xp and thus leveling.

Hi Geek, not everything is connected to players level, there are few things which depend on players "Power / Command points worth".

[Knightingale]

Originally posted by LGM Phoenix:

Originally posted by Robo Hobo:

Yes but what I mean is this...
In many space games I get the following experience:

I want to grind to get x amount of mined ore in my big cargo ship "The Panty Liner". But I have the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" equiped to my 'Panty Liner' for protection.
I clearly notice as soon as I put the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" on my "Panty Liner" then all of a sudden the enemies that spawn in the asteroid fields are now equipped with the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun"
And everyone knows the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun" is 1 shot 1 kill on "Panty Liner" ships.

I want to love the universe you guys made. Not hate it because of this old mechanic that needs to die and burn to 'Oblivion'

This should not be the case in our game. Any ship can have any weapon, though it might be hard to maintain the energy needed to fire some better weapons on smaller ships, but the enemies won't suddenly, and out of nowhere counter you. Once you start leveling up, the parts of the universe will level up with you and will fire at you with big guns no matter what you have equipped at that moment. :)

Originally posted by Geek - Gemini Warlord:

It is based on your level, not your loadout.
As Phoenix said above, you can not avoid gaining xp and thus leveling.

Ah I see.
Well that is not AS bad. But still takes me out of the game a little. Unless this one has something the other games don't.
Because I can use my XP to game the universe to my will as well.

Like I know after this next level the enemies will gain the Anti-Panty Gun.
So I should do all the hard missions in my sector with my Panty Liner ship before I level up.
That kind of thing?

Or is it smaller details that level up. Like damage reduction and shield manipulation where levels don't really matter because you always have the same difficulty in a fight? Basically forcing you to use new abilities once you got a setup you like.

I guess what I want is a universe that doesn't care about me at all. Where it is doing it's own thing, and I'm just there trying not to get crushed by the Anti-Panty gunners. And the only way to avoid them is to learn their habits.
Or something like that.

But in any case I might give this one a try.

[Knightingale]

Originally posted by Oluja:

Originally posted by Robo Hobo:

Yes but what I mean is this...
In many space games I get this experience:

I want to grind to get x amount of mined ore in my big cargo ship "The Panty Liner". But I have the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" equiped to my 'Panty Liner' for protection.
I clearly notice as soon as I put the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" on my "Panty Liner" then all of a sudden the enemies that spawn in the asteroid fields are now equipped with the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun"
And everyone knows the "Epic Anti-Panty Gun" is 1 shot 1 kill on "Panty Liner" ships.

So I remove the "Super Dooper Pooper Gun" and I no longer die from 1 shot. In fact I find that I can tank with shields and kite the enemy while I mine for ore.
All because of my choice of weapon.

Anything even remotely close to that makes me ALT F4 and refund.
I don't even want to waste my download time if that is what this game does in any way.
Because my brain WILL find those immersion breaking patterns.

I want to love the universe you guys made. Not hate it because of this old mechanic that needs to die and burn to 'Oblivion'

Hi Robo Hobo,

like you I'm also a gamer, and indeed I hate it when the enemies scale as I get something new and better on my character. Escpecially since the only reason I got that something better, was to have an easier time with the pesky enemies.
I can tell you that in Starpoint Gemini Warlords we utilize different approaches to determine strength of enemies.
We have static enemies which are almost always the same strength.
Example of this is that around Mining Operation Tier 1, you'll find enemies always around the same strength, while around Mining Operation Tier 2, you'll find harder enemies, since one of the benefits of the Tier2 mining operation is better security force.
This is true for the most part of the game, since it follows this philosophy.
However, some of the enemies scale with the player, and I'd ask you to think about it for a bit why that is so.
There are several reasons for it:
1) We want to provide the player with challenges that are fun, and that is something having to struggle a bit, and other times is to decimate enemies.
2) If for instance in the real world, you have a small criminal, you send the police to handle the situation, if you have an armed robber, you send better equipped police, so that the police doesn't get hurt. If you have robber with a car, police also comes with the car, because surely they will have easier time to handle the robber if they have a car than if they didn't have a car. And if there is a dude with a Tank, you wont send the police to handle him, you'll send your military to handle the situation, because they are better suited for the task at hand.
- So while I also sometimes feel like the AI is cheating when it scales with me in games, I actually understand the logic behind why it works that way sometimes, and it stopped bothering me, since it makes sense.
3) Plus side is, player has an advantage against most of his enemmies, since he can use skills, perks, and lots of other stuff, AI doesn't have so not only will you decimate your opponents, you'll also do it in different spectacular ways.

Well thats atleast how I see it, I'd love to hear what you think about some of this.

Have a great time in Gemini :)

Ok this makes sense. The levels are more about context. If those enemies know you, or expect you. Then they should scale with you.

It's just when parts of the universe, or enemy groups who don't know you at all, suddently match my level for no reason other than difficulty, then that is when things break for me. It sounds like that is balanced out here though.

That should keep things interesting.

[Oluja]

Originally posted by Robo Hobo:

Originally posted by Oluja:

Hi Robo Hobo,

like you I'm also a gamer, and indeed I hate it when the enemies scale as I get something new and better on my character. Escpecially since the only reason I got that something better, was to have an easier time with the pesky enemies.
I can tell you that in Starpoint Gemini Warlords we utilize different approaches to determine strength of enemies.
We have static enemies which are almost always the same strength.
Example of this is that around Mining Operation Tier 1, you'll find enemies always around the same strength, while around Mining Operation Tier 2, you'll find harder enemies, since one of the benefits of the Tier2 mining operation is better security force.
This is true for the most part of the game, since it follows this philosophy.
However, some of the enemies scale with the player, and I'd ask you to think about it for a bit why that is so.
There are several reasons for it:
1) We want to provide the player with challenges that are fun, and that is something having to struggle a bit, and other times is to decimate enemies.
2) If for instance in the real world, you have a small criminal, you send the police to handle the situation, if you have an armed robber, you send better equipped police, so that the police doesn't get hurt. If you have robber with a car, police also comes with the car, because surely they will have easier time to handle the robber if they have a car than if they didn't have a car. And if there is a dude with a Tank, you wont send the police to handle him, you'll send your military to handle the situation, because they are better suited for the task at hand.
- So while I also sometimes feel like the AI is cheating when it scales with me in games, I actually understand the logic behind why it works that way sometimes, and it stopped bothering me, since it makes sense.
3) Plus side is, player has an advantage against most of his enemmies, since he can use skills, perks, and lots of other stuff, AI doesn't have so not only will you decimate your opponents, you'll also do it in different spectacular ways.

Well thats atleast how I see it, I'd love to hear what you think about some of this.

Have a great time in Gemini :)

Ok this makes sense. The levels are more about context. If those enemies know you, or expect you. Then they should scale with you.

It's just when parts of the universe, or enemy groups who don't know you at all, suddently match my level for no reason other than difficulty, then that is when things break for me. It sounds like that is balanced out here though.

That should keep things interesting.

:)

[abecedarian]

Originally posted by Oluja:

Originally posted by Robo Hobo:

Ok this makes sense. The levels are more about context. If those enemies know you, or expect you. Then they should scale with you.

It's just when parts of the universe, or enemy groups who don't know you at all, suddently match my level for no reason other than difficulty, then that is when things break for me. It sounds like that is balanced out here though.

That should keep things interesting.

:)

I saw all above and I decide to try this game. One thing I am curious is, why you devs don't give the choice to players? I think an option for players to chose using the "scaling system" or static level is fine. Just like Dragon Age Inqusition, if I want some challenge, I can open the switch that all foes will level up to my level. But if I just want a easy game, I can turn off it and one-shot-kill those low level enemies. Anyway, as I spent so much time to improve my strength, I should have chances to enjoy it, isn't it?