Dev Poll: Camera Modes

[Karlito]

Hey guys,
what camera modes are you using the most?
Are you using Normal View/Turret View?
Are you using Selection Mode/Steering mode?
Are you using 1st Person View/Mounted Camera?

We noticed that new players have trouble adjusting to the camera controls, and we know that there is room improvement in basically all of them. It would help us if you could tell us which camera modes you use the most and if there are some you don't even touch, that way we could focus on improving the most used camera modes and make the whole learning experience more streamlined for new users.

Any feedback is appreciated, thanks!

[Sern]

When flying from point A to B I usually stick with selection mode with the view centered forward. When entering combat I enter turret mode and activate steering with spacebar (default) and toggle spacebar periodically as I face the camera to different targets.

The mode I use the least (almost never) is steering mode by itself. I steer with WASD / QE rather than with mouse aiming. IMO it feels weird to steer the ship with the mouse but feels much more natural to use WASD (as a long time PC gamer I guess; I'm not big on controlers) because you can look in whatever direction you want (toward the enemy) while also steering your ship. If just using steering while facing forward, you won't always have a good view of enemies around you and especially behind you.

Also, regarding camera placement, I use 3rd person and usually zoom out slightly more than the default to get a better picture of my surroundings. I really enjoy 1st person in some games, such as GTA V. It's immersive and the mechanics have really been taken into account to allow efficient use of 1st person without sacrificing too much elsewhere. Some space games are really meant to be played in first person. Elite: Dangerous for example can only be played in first person unless you're using the new multi-crew features recently introduced. But I feel that this game, given the more arcade feel, fits best with 3rd person view and I find first person view far too disorienting.

[Tanvaras]

Turret mode pretty much exclusively. I just to used to flying this way since SPG 2. (WSAD (QE - Roll) and manual rotation via mouse (Hardly use space bar for rotation).

[Sern]

Originally posted by Tanvaras - SPG Warlords!!:

Turret mode pretty much exclusively. I just to used to flying this way since SPG 2. (WSAD (QE - Roll) and manual rotation via mouse (Hardly use space bar for rotation).

I could get away with that if I had power management and utility slot hotkeys memorized lol. Although when entering combat I usually put a rough mix between weapons and shields and nothing into engines and I don't think there's a hotkey for that? Who needs PTE in combat anyway, especially when you're piloting one of the largest ships.

[Geek]

I use both normal and turret views, and switch between mouse modes often.
It has been quite an habit since I played Freelancer.
Never used 1st person or mounted camera (other than testing).

[mad_wolfy]

I stick to standart 3rd person and turret mode, using WASD for piloting (using mouse steering to make sharper turns, almost essential on larger heavier ships) and the turret mode to be able to look and select/order independently from direction of steering in combat. Turret mode also very useful to sightsee and admire your ship with gorgeous backgrounds during long flights.As for steering mode, I don't use the spacebar as it would often make my ship turn in uninteded way as I scramble to multitask with the mouse in the midst of battle (boarding/power management/selection/skills/orders) before remembering to turn it off.

I do believe the camera could be a slightly lower angle on normal view, a bit less plungeing or maybe adjustable to deal with different size/shape of ships.

The mounted and first person camera I don't use at all : that would be usefull for dogfighting, but this is a capital ship game, and even slow firing weapons seems to find their mark no matter how much you swerve (only in long range combat can you dodge) and tactical placement being so important (firing arcs and weapon range) the first person view proves too limited in terms of spacial awareness.

And for any "realistic concerns", It's more probable that those ships would do away with any kind of "windows" (that monted/first person simulate) that would be structural weaknesses and use some kind of VR tech (headset or even full rooms) to allow much more advanced awareness (that could also account for sound in space being added by simulation to use more senses :P). Even modern warships can be entirely commanded from the bowels of the vessel, and any kind of space warship would be much more akind to submarines than surface vessels anyway.

[srfrogg23]

Normal/turret view seems the most effective for battlefield awareness. I tend to use that the most.

It's also the only available camera view when using the gamepad.

Mounted/1st person is nice from an immersion standpoint, but without a cockpit the 1st person view feels a bit lackluster. I really only use it for manually aiming at small derelicts.

[Little Strawberry]

Turret View + Selection Mode exclusively.

Wouldn't a strawpoll be good for this also?

[[SW-GQ]Mania]

Selection Mode/Steering mode

[Sackface]

Coming from Freelancer I use Normal View + Steering Mode and W/S for accelerating/stopping. Since there is no sideways moving yet I use A/D for left/right.

[Oluja]

Whats is this?
A developer responds to a Dev Pool targeting our community?

Well sorry for intrusion, I just wanted to share how I play they game, since I play it from time to time :D

Well 98% of the time I use Turret View. I switch back and forth from steering to selection mode, quite often in battles and while i travel.

Normal View + Steering mode, I never use, just doesn't feel right for this kind of game imo. If we were controlling fighters sure, but for capital ships, this is a big no-no for me, Turret View is far more superior for me.

But there is actually 2% of the time, when I use Normal View, but I only use it with Selection mode, and I use it for 1 purpose only and that is to Reset the Camera to look in front of my ship. Mostly for traveling :D

[BrvBrvSirRobin]

Normalveiw/turret view mostly. I just put the dread on auto fire and navigate through the enemy fleet.

[MM74]

Like stated before and some others pointed out too : ship steering and camera modes are my biggest issue with the game so far.

It still feels like an awkward mix of strategic combat with skills/equipment, commanding capital ships on one side and the "dogfight mechanics (best way I can put it)" on the other side.

I tried a few things and totally abandoned everything but Turret View + Selection Mode on/off.

But still I think that is far from perfect. The scale of your (bigger) ships feels too small, everything happens too fast and close by - as a Sharpshooter in a capital ship I always long for a more "EVE-Online" like approach on steering and managing your battle. It don´t need to be as slow paced as in EVE, but right now it´s neither a good dogfight view/steering, nor a good capital/tactical view and commanding/steering method.

Turret View + Selection Mode on/off is the to go option, but misses things like:
- more distance and slower pace (for example make Sharpshooter passivly gain more range on weapons and a "delay time" option during combat for true tactical commanding of a huge capital ship)
- tactical overview of available targets (maybe limited by skills like in EVE)
- let us zoom out further
- some basic movement commands via hotkeys (like circle/keep at range/keep target on right,left, front or tail, etc.)

I really love your game, but ship commanding feels not like managing a huge capital ship - which I would hope for.

[Darllock]

Turret veiw + selection mode, maybe pan out more for bigger ships, higher rank sees more of the tactical battlefield senario type situation. Also is flyby view going to be implemented?

[Severian]

I exclusively use the turret camera in the mode that only moves the camera when I left-click, and have been doing so since SPG2.
I do try out the others periodically, but I always revert to the above almost immediately.
For example, I do not generally use the mode where the camera automatically looks in the direction my mouse is pointing in a lot, because cam movement feels too frantic. But it is handy at times to just hit space and pick out that derelict or fighter that keeps hiding from my sight - useful, but not for general use, imo.

Edit: Totes forgot that 1st person view even exists xD Yeah, I don't use it. Without a cockpit I feel it is just no fun. Plus, there is really no benefit to restrict my view so severely, since, as was already pointed out, this is not a dogfight sim.

Now, for why I do not use the ship view at all:

The first and primary reason I choose to steer the ship with my left hand istead of the mouse is the low turning speed of all ships, including the smallest, but obviously much more pronounced with Battleships and upwards.
When I use the mouse I constantly have to yank it from one edge of the screen - and the mouse pad - to the other. I virtually never end up smoothly lining up shots, following in an enemy pilot's wake like a WW1 pilot ace, because it feels like the AI here doesn't use similar flight paths, or perhaps because the whole interconnected package of velocity, turn speed and weapon range is different in Warlords - I'm not going to go into detail here, because this would be an entirely different issue. The point is that the way the AI is steering the ships now, the smaller ones are flying circles around me, and even in a frigate with 20% upgraded turn speed I cannot turn fast enough to give more of my guns a line of fire. Maybe if had a dreadnaught I wouldn't care, but I am not that far into the game^^
I hope that this will be better once you've updated the combat AI.


Secondly. the angle at which I am looking at my ship in ship view is simply too steep, in my opinion. I seem to remember that other space games used cameras that were looking at my ship almost from directly behind, but still giving me a good line of sight on the enemy I was chasing.
Whereever I am flying in that mode I always have to correct my flight path up or down a few notches when I am not on autopilot. Constantly.
Also, it feels like the field of view is a bit too limited - you have to look around a lot, and don't necessarily want to change your flight path all that much at the same time. Even enemies that are almost directly ahead appear to be too high on my screen. Combine this with the low turn speed, the frantic, zig-zagging flight paths that resemble a hare's flight more than anything I've ever seen flying, and the inopportune placement of the radar in the lower left corner instead of, e.g., the bottom center, and it makes maneuvering and target acquisition way more of a hassle than it needs to be.

All in all, I guess I am using turret view and selection mode, because, to put it bluntly, I don't want to play an inferior version of freelancer.
This game has different merits, and they are not few, but, in my opinion EDIT> and contrary to what the camera options might suggest<EDIT, this game will never be a great space ace dogfighting simulator, because of the way all the ships in Warlords are conceptualized at the moment - with crews numbering in the dozens and hundreds, rpg-like skills and consumables and cumbersome ships that are way better suited to languid movement and careful planning than the frantic chaos of dogfights.
- And yet, dogfighting range is exactly where the game puts us due to the (according to devs) inadequate AI, which will get upgrades in the future, and because of the weapon range to movement speed ratio, which puts you always at about 5 or 6 seconds away from the farthest enemy you can still shoot at (when the two of you are flying at one another).

At the moment, I think, this game is caught in between the two poles of close-up dogfights and the more tactical, longer ranged, slower pace of a drawn out battle between dreadnaughts lining up shots while trying to deny their opponent a good firing line.

EDIT: If your goal is to make all camera and interaction modes viable and fun, then -

/edited because I'd forgotten to include the whole reason for writing what comes below - silly me :D

The following are my suggestions. They are not perfect by any means, but they are well meant and uttered by someone who has a lot of respect for what has already been achieved and would like to see this game thrive. So, please indulge me for a second:

In addition to upgrading the AI, please stop treating all ships essentially the same. Simply trading more hitpoints and firing power for maneuverability is boring, and it leads to the only ships worth building or flying being the biggest ones. Posts about how anything smaller than a cruiser is just not worth building abound on this forum.

Make smaller craft faster, relatively to the bigger ones. (Sublight speed should stay the same across all sizes to maintain the cohesion of fleets and as a quality of life feature.)
Differences in turning speed and acceleration, too, should be even more pronounced.

Give the weapon systems a lot more range on bigger ships, but make them less effective at targeting small, fast craft (probably simply use different weapon systems for small, mid size and capital ships), while tier 1 weapon ranges could be reduces by as much as 30%.
Add specifically anti-capital-ship weapons that will make a swarm of corvettes or frigates a nightmare for all captains of cruisers and upwards, while small ships are fast enough to outrun the torpedos.
Give the heavies the option to carry lower range flak or countermeasure batteries in the heavy weapons slot, so players can defend themselves against pesky gunships and corvettes.
Gunships should imo be best against other tier 1 craft, but also the fighters launched from carriers and ships of the line, as well as mines and player skills etc.
Generally speaking different ships should have different roles; dreadnaughts should have bigger things on their plate than tier 1 and even tier 2 ships, for example.

I mention these things here, because they are directly connected to the issue at hand - "how do we players choose to interact with the game?"

The input method we prefer is, at least in my opinion, a result of what feels right as well as of what is most convenient or feasible.
If, like at the moment, the game only provides players with one single task - staying alive in a chaotic ball of hate and plasma, while killing as many enemy ships as possible - there will be one best option to achieve that; both in terms of ship choice and in the way players control their ship.

Only once different ships really fill different roles, and allow us to play differently, because they are mechanically substantially different, will all those options you provided us with really begin to shine!
Turret view will be increasingly favourable with the size of one's ship and be perfect for the captain of a dreadnaught or carrier, while those who favor the pilot ace approach would be well served by ship view/steering mode.
And with the mechanical changes I suggested above (or any other changes you choose to implement to make smaller craft more viable - which you really should do, since they are practically worthless in larger battles) not only would there be good reason to include smaller ships in one's fleet, but a good player could impact a battle regardless of whether he or she is piloting a gunship or a dreadnaught.


I admit this is a lot to take in in a single serving, but since you devs are really making an effort to create the best space game possible with a team of 25, I decided to dig deep and take the time.
Rest assured it comes from the right place and with only the best intentions for the game and this ongoing discussion.
As always I'd be happy to know what everyone thinks! :)
Cheers

tl/dr "there is no tl/dr, slacker! ;-)"

[Horrorman]

I most of the time use Normal View/Turret View. I´m used to it now. Most of the time I try to move in circles around bigger targets like Dreadnoughts and Carrier with fire at will enabled.