How is this game like Rogue?

[NOT_A_ROGUELIKE]

It's not.

Let alone being a "roguelike classic" as per the store description-

"Spelunky 2 builds upon the unique, randomized challenges that made the original a roguelike classic..."

I'm sure it's a fantastic game, but let's be honest here- it is not a classic roguelike. It's an action-platformer with roguelike elements, just like the first game.

[Pangolin Legends: Arceus]

You know it's perfectly legal for a game to not be a roguelike or roguelite. Spelunky 2 is basically an arcade platform game.

[Kenuty]

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

Originally posted by Skyblade799:

One (roguebasin) is simply a rogue fan-site (rogue-basin) of which is exclusively concerned with rogue fan-games, which does not deal with the topic of hybrid genres as it would only ever refer to the game that inspired the genre specifically.

You have misunderstood roguebasin because you don't understand the roguelike genre. Roguebasin is not just concerned with the single game 'rogue' and fan made 'rogue' games, it is concerned with roguelikes which is a genre (arguably) started by the game rogue. It's true that the emphasis is on non-commercial development but that's to be expected as roguelikes have often been freely distributed by fans of the genre who created their own games. As I said we have an annual 7 day roguelike coding event which produces hundreds of games a year.

As someone has pointed out there are plenty of commercial games though that are roguelikes such as Jupiter Hell, Tales of Maj'eyal etc.

The defining features of a roguelike are coarse quantization of time and space, as in turn-based and existing on a grid. The core gameplay of Jupiter Hell as an example is massively different from the core gameplay of Spelunky 2.

Roguelike fans have been calling games roguelikes for decades and we haven't gone away. We still play the same kinds of games, write the same kinds of games and call the same things roguelikes. Mainstream gams stole the term roguelike because it sells games.

Solution?
Call it Rogue style, Rogue classic, Original-Rogue and make your new term.
It's time what is so hard? there's only a handful of you left

[Pangolin Legends: Arceus]

Originally posted by Kenuty:

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

You have misunderstood roguebasin because you don't understand the roguelike genre. Roguebasin is not just concerned with the single game 'rogue' and fan made 'rogue' games, it is concerned with roguelikes which is a genre (arguably) started by the game rogue. It's true that the emphasis is on non-commercial development but that's to be expected as roguelikes have often been freely distributed by fans of the genre who created their own games. As I said we have an annual 7 day roguelike coding event which produces hundreds of games a year.

As someone has pointed out there are plenty of commercial games though that are roguelikes such as Jupiter Hell, Tales of Maj'eyal etc.

The defining features of a roguelike are coarse quantization of time and space, as in turn-based and existing on a grid. The core gameplay of Jupiter Hell as an example is massively different from the core gameplay of Spelunky 2.

Roguelike fans have been calling games roguelikes for decades and we haven't gone away. We still play the same kinds of games, write the same kinds of games and call the same things roguelikes. Mainstream gams stole the term roguelike because it sells games.

Solution?
Call it Rogue style, Rogue classic, Original-Rogue and make your new term.
It's time what is so hard? there's only a handful of you left

It's hardly a handful. Like I said the 7 day roguelike competition produces hundreds of games a year and that's just the developers that have time and inclination to do that. There's also the players of roguelikes who don't code.

And why should we change our name just because the next generation decided to steal it?

[Kenuty]

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

You know it's perfectly legal for a game to not be a roguelike or roguelite. Spelunky 2 is basically an arcade platform game.

sure, but its an rogue-like arcade platform game. With the word attached to it, many people actually understand what is included in this type of game/mechanic. The point is it's a coined term now that people understands.

[globefish23]

Originally posted by Kill Bart:

consider for a moment; The entire platformer genre is just an evolved version of pong, wherein you play as the ball, and the platforms represent the paddles, your goal becomes scoring at the finish line and every time the environment scores a point your lives deplete.

Pong is a shameless rip-off from Tennis for Two (1958).

[Kenuty]

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

Originally posted by Kenuty:

Solution?
Call it Rogue style, Rogue classic, Original-Rogue and make your new term.
It's time what is so hard? there's only a handful of you left

It's hardly a handful. Like I said the 7 day roguelike competition produces hundreds of games a year and that's just the developers that have time and inclination to do that. There's also the players of roguelikes who don't code.

And why should we change our name just because the next generation decided to steal it?

If there really was more than a handful, I would see original rogue games being sold in the millions, This isn't happening and that's a fact. The next generation didn't steal anything from you, the word itself has evolved because of the mechanics involved. Take it or leave it but games of this genre it's still going to be coined Rogue like and years after you are gone it will be so.

[Pangolin Legends: Arceus]

Originally posted by Kenuty:

sure, but its an rogue-like arcade platform game. With the word attached to it, many people actually understand what is included in this type of game/mechanic.

What exactly is roguelike about it? Procedural generation? And the word "roguelike" doesn't give the consumer any useful information because it has been overused so much. Mainstream people today call Binding of Isaac, FTL, Slay the Spire and Spelunky 2 roguelikes and they have very little in common with each other.

[Skypris]

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

Originally posted by Skyblade799:

One (roguebasin) is simply a rogue fan-site (rogue-basin) of which is exclusively concerned with rogue fan-games, which does not deal with the topic of hybrid genres as it would only ever refer to the game that inspired the genre specifically.

The defining features of a roguelike are coarse quantization of time and space, as in turn-based and existing on a grid.

Lol that's like saying Final Fantasy 12, Final Fantasy 7 Remake, the Tales series, and other similar titles aren't JRPGs just because their combat is real-time. Grid and turn based is just that, turn-based, grid-based, etc, not Rogue. Rogue-like/lite is perma-death, usually randomization, and little to no progress to carry forth outside of maybe unlockables.

But man, who knew Xcom 2, Final Fantasy Tactics, and other games were considered Rogue (by the false logic of grid and turn based defining features). /s

Mainstream games stealing the term to sell games? I'm sorry, I don't see swathes of fans buying games because of them being misguided by the terminology. The average person will picture a game with varying levels of the attributes I outlined when someone mentions rogue-like/lite. The only people that have gripes with this are elitist, misguided purists that can't get with the times of these darned whipersnappers.

[Kenuty]

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

Originally posted by Kenuty:

sure, but its an rogue-like arcade platform game. With the word attached to it, many people actually understand what is included in this type of game/mechanic.

What exactly is roguelike about it? Procedural generation? And the word "roguelike" doesn't give the consumer any useful information because it has been overused so much. Mainstream people today call Binding of Isaac, FTL, Slay the Spire and Spelunky 2 roguelikes and they have very little in common with each other.

You're looking at it wrong, when people hear roguelike they are looking for the MOST important factor and they find that when they associate it to the word

Procedural conents I.E weapons, items, dungeons
Permanent death and consequences
Character Centric and story
Cycle of faliures and success

They kept it simple and got rid of the rest, acii etc because face it, noone is going to play acii game FOREVER. they evolve it

Think about it logically, if i talk about dessert people mind will automatically click and see
Ice cream, cookies, Cake, chocolate, sweet, delicious

But let's just say we call it what it originally is thousands of years ago, AFTERMEALS
people would think

are we getting more hot dogs? a burger? a new steak? What? or is it dessert?


The whole point is to help associate and for people to understand it is used so much and evolved that the majority basically UNDERSTANDS this term now while the few disgruntled original fans are confused.

But think of this down the line 20 or 40 years from now, will there still be enough fans around for the original Rogue or understands the original meaning? Hell even the word Roguelike will probably evolve deeper as our gaming enter the age of Virtual reality and visual upgrades.

I honestly don't like or hate what is going on myself, I just ride along with the flow of evolution and adapt.

[Skypris]

Originally posted by Kenuty:

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

What exactly is roguelike about it? Procedural generation? And the word "roguelike" doesn't give the consumer any useful information because it has been overused so much. Mainstream people today call Binding of Isaac, FTL, Slay the Spire and Spelunky 2 roguelikes and they have very little in common with each other.

You're looking at it wrong, when people hear roguelike they are looking for the MOST important factor and they find that when they associate it to the word

Proedural dungeon, weapons, items, dungeons
Permanent death and consequences
Character Centric and story
Cycle of faliures and success

They kept it simple and got rid of the rest, acii etc because face it, noone is going to play acii game FOREVER. they evolve it

^ Exactly this. Rogue-like/lite doesn't need to define ONLY the characteristics that an elitist few choose. The populace understands what the terminology entails. The game type may be paired with a one, a few, or several other genres but there's still core attributes that carry forth between the rogue-likes/lites.

It's like Rhythm games. Yeah, maybe you aren't creating music, but it involves music in some way, whether its dungeon crawling to the beat, first-person shooting to the beat, actually pseudo-playing the music, or solving puzzles that complete tune or make music in some way.

[256MB of SPAM]

“Well, technically...”

And then everyone at the party slowly moved away from him.

[Pangolin Legends: Arceus]

I'm not going to argue any more with people who either don't know the history or don't respect it; people who either work backwards from words to infer their meanings, rely on video game stores or youtube videos for definitions or just make up their own definitions based on casual observation of trending steam releases.

Bye.

[256MB of SPAM]

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

I'm not going to argue any more with people who either don't know the history or don't respect it; people who either work backwards from words to infer their meanings, rely on video game stores or youtube videos for definitions or just make up their own definitions based on casual observation of trending steam releases.

Bye.

If it’s getting you worked up then you should definitely take a break.

Hades is defined as a rogue-like by industry professionals. That being the people who made it. And even though I’ve no issue with the terminology, I’d be looking to them rather than some random curator who clearly has an axe to grind to confirm my understanding.

[Kenuty]

Originally posted by graspee AKA pango:

I'm not going to argue any more with people who either don't know the history or don't respect it; people who either work backwards from words to infer their meanings, rely on video game stores or youtube videos for definitions or just make up their own definitions based on casual observation of trending steam releases.

Bye.

I love it when people resort stomping their feet and running off and using these type of attacks because they know they will get the same answer as to why during their arguments.
Noone said anything about not knowing the history or not repsecting it or that the game is a true rogue. The word has changed move on with it or die. Never relied on youtube videos or game stores or own definition but I understand the meanings that make up the word Rogue itself. The word itself is to help others UNDERSTAND a type of game genre they are making a purchase on.


You either flow with the river as the leaf riding on its water or stall on something wilting away and die being absorbed into the river. But even if the leaf is absorbed into the river, isn't the leaf now apart of the river?
The river will never go away.

Can't just assume that people do not respect where things originate.
I had to go a bit deeper for you because your thoughts and answer on the debate/argument is very constricted by your ideology same as the op.

[Psyringe]

"Roguelike" has always been a questionable term to define a genre, and battles about its "true meaning" have raged on for decades. The whole reason why the "Berlin interpretation" was conceived in 2008 is because people had _already_ been fighting so much over the term that many felt a need to "resolve" that issue. Which of course didn't happen, because the term has always meant different things to different people, and lots of people simply disagreed with that interpretation (and continue to do so).

The problem is that game design is evolving, and language is evolving as well. So if a term is inherently vague already (such as "roguelike"), it will naturally evolve in different ways. Attempts to crusade for the "one true meaning" of the term seem a bit silly to me, and also futile. They have never succeeded in the 30+ years that I'm a fan of these games now, there is zero indication that they ever will, and crusading for an unwinnable cause isn't a terribly useful thing to do. At some point, most people realize that Don Quixote is not a hero, but a caricature to be laughed at, so behaving like him is not the best course of action.

Personally, as someone who likes to keep his language precise, I dislike the term and would rather talk about the underlying features themselves. That said, I think the term _is_ a useful shorthand for marketing - if your game only has 2 seconds to make an impression on a potential customer, then "roguelike" is a more efficient description than "challenging platformer with permadeath and procedurally generated levels". The latter is more precise, but the former is much shorter and therefore has a higher likelihood of actually getting read and having an effect.