New Models [Positive Opinion]

[Chrys]

TL;DR: I personally really like the aesthetic of the new Models.

Let me explain:
Whilst I enjoyed the "Glow" the old Models had, it felt too much like ripped off MMD Models. I understand that's the style the show is in, but seeing as how RWBY Chibi is going for a similar style makes me think that this is the direction the show might actually go.
(Actually, in fact, comparing the polygons of the Game Models and actual MMD models, both of them use the same kind of Mesh (triangular) which actually should be avoided for most animation things)

Sure there's issues here and there (with them looking rather clay-esque but I can see that improve in the future. ), but We gotta wait and see how it turns out.

I have many say they think this 'Doll'- look is creepy, but I disagree to a certain degree. Again, kinks to work out, it's the first time they showed these models. In motion they look totally fine, it's just that stills can make it creepy. (Hence why they gotta work on that)

I personally feel this is an interesting direction the game is taking, and it feels like it's finally becoming something more... original. (I'm sorry if my choice of words seems harsher than intented).

Especially for characters like Weiss, this new style makes them look more.. elegant and mature in a sense.
I'm looking forward to improvements and seeing how it goes.

If they decide to change back to the old models, I'm totally fine with that too, though I also wouldn't mind them keeping these. (Especially since it seems to be less taxing on people's PCs allegedly)

EDIT: Since people didn't seem to understand from the start, I've only ever been talking about the AESTHETHIC.

I do agree that there is actual issues with the model themselves. Anatomy issues, shading issues, texture issues etc.
From a Modeling standpoint they are... beginner level of okay. (And I'm only ever talking about the face here since the rest of the model is perfectly fine aside from the occasional long thighs)
It's just I like the more mature look of the textures (the eyes being a different shape, there being less glow, Yang's hair being more detailed etc).

Also, I am trying to view this as someone who HADN'T SEEN THE OLD MODELS. I am NOT comparing them to the old ones. I am just thinking: "Wot if my friend came up to me and told me he made these models for a game he's working on?"

[cami]

It isn't a matter of "Oh, but they're moving constantly so it's OK". People take screenshots and want to show off the game, but I couldn't say for sure that people would be proud to show off screenshots of the current models.

My greatest fear is they perhaps won't try to do anything to fix the faces. That they think omitting detail from the character, such as the ruffles on Weiss's collar or Blake's vest or even the poofiness of Ruby's skirt, is OK. But that's not really a stylistic decision, removing detail from the character models, it just makes the characters look more off.

[白狐狸水緒]

Remember when Monty refused a larger budged for the show because it wouldn't be his own show at that point? Just remember that moment. I don't need to say anything else.

The models NEED to be optional. The majority of the people hate them and the sounds they brought with them, and a lot of us never had frame rate issues in the first place. The models NEED to be optional, and changes like this NEED to be discussed beforehand in the future.

[leucome]

My biggest fear is that ... they might not know how to fix/improve the face. I've seen at least 15 things that is done wrong ... I say wrong because it make them less pretty and less like the show.

I do not feel or think that they are an artistic choice. Those thing look a lot like the same mistake I've done and a lot of modeller do when they trying to make a 3D anime style character for the first time.

With 3D model the face topology need to be flawless and fine tuned to look pretty in every angle. This require a way more skill, knowledge and fine tuning than we may think.

Overall the look is not directly related to the number of poly or the outline and cell shader. Even in these new models there are places where it's possible to remove useless poly while making them look better at same time.. I think. And also there are many anime look a like games or MMD model that are low poly shaded and still look gorgeous. So..

Other than the face... the model look different but good.

[Einsty]

The models are seen from every angle during gameplay, moving and still as well.

The creepy doll look is more than just a kink to work out. It's an issue to resolve.

Every model in the history of 3D graphics is made out of triangles, quads only make modelling easier, but GPU always parses the model as triangles.

Also, to produce significant framerate issues, the models would have to have orders of magnitude more polygons than necessary, not just 2 or 3 times as much. If that was the case, the game would lag every time a new character joined or a Grim spawned. And if framerate is that important, just LOD it.

[leucome]

Einsty a écrit :

Every model in the history of 3D graphics is made out of triangles, quads only make modelling easier, but GPU always parses the model as triangles.

Just for the fun of arguing for no reasons... 3d graphics can also be done out of ray traced cloud or voxel or even from things like extruded height map / ray casting without the use of any triangle surface.

Game like outcast used a ray casted voxel landscape made whit no triangle surface. While the character where made with triangle.

Other than that a polygon is not only a quad .. It is a surface that can be made of any number of triangle ... wich also include only one triangle or a quad. There are no quad modelling software... because to get a quad we need to model a two triangle polygon surface. Also there are almost no way to model a human body with quad only there will be few triangles or pentagons somewhere 99.9% of the time.

People chose to use quad by themselves. Using as much quad as possible make the uv wrapping/rigging/skinning/ process easier it also make models that look better when smoothed using subdivided surface. But I do not think that it make the actual modelling that much easier at least for me. But it look more clean and less clustered.

There are people that like to sculpt with anything and do a quad retopo after .. Or other that like to use splines nurbs or any other kind of curve based surface. But it think the box extrusion modelling is still pretty efficient to model human body even the face.

This said .. whatever the medium ... 3d model, clay or wood ... the modeller/sculptor need to know face shape and anatomy if not it can end up creepy instead of pretty and cute... Maybe even more with anime character because they are idealized and exaggerated representation of human being.

So those model need to fool our brain and make us believe that it's human while it's not at all. This do not leave a large margin for shape/volume/topology error. Wrong volume shape make pretty nasty looking shade in the darker/unlit zone and can also lead to pretty misplaced specular highlight.

[Person012345]

Einsty a écrit :

The models are seen from every angle during gameplay, moving and still as well.

The creepy doll look is more than just a kink to work out. It's an issue to resolve.

No, it's not. You can "work it out" all you want so they look less like cheap hentai models, they still won't have the aesthetic of the show and whilst they may be "acceptable" if they work on these style of models, THE MODELS BEFORE WERE GREAT. You will never make me like this style because it's inferior to what was there before.

[leucome]

Person012345 a écrit :

Einsty a écrit :

THE MODELS BEFORE WERE GREAT. You will never make me like this style.

This is 100% true the older model were better so much better that i'm 99.999% sure it's not the same artist who made them.

I tried to make it sound not so arsh in my other comment.. But he new model do not have only a style problem .. they have a model problem. They are bad sculpt.

The volume and face shape is wrong. The profile is wrong..
The eye shape is wrong the nose placement is wrong ..
the pupil the eyelid, the eyelashes, the eyebrows the mouth the lips, the hear . the chin the cheeks , the forehead... The skin tone the eye colour ...Every single piece of those model face have something slightly messed up. I mean even the eyeball is not the right size. They have super big iris on super small eyeball it look like the eyes are gonna pop out and fall on the floor.


And with all these thing wrong combined with shaded material with relatively dark zone it make the character look ... you know how they look.

They could have tweaked the environment light to make the model more pleasing to look at and to hide all me wrong shape.

They look fine from far away.

But like I said in an earlier message my biggest fear is that ... they might not know how to fix/improve the face. I wonder how they got approved to go in a real update in the first place.


So they could revert back to the old model but it kinda limit the possibility to see any improvement future update.

[Person012345]

Well, I will give my comment a caveat that if they do manage to make them look like the show then that will be fine, but I was talking about the style as it is right now, lack of cel-shading, bad lighting, etc. The ugly faces are something that I imagine they will try to fix as I can'tsee it being intentional.

[leucome]

Person012345 a écrit :

Well, I will give my comment a caveat that if they do manage to make them look like the show then that will be fine, but I was talking about the style as it is right now, lack of cel-shading, bad lighting, etc.

Light is a pretty close simulation of reality ...If it look bad it usually mean that the model do not have the proper shape to produce the shadows and shade our brain expect to see.

Using cell shading and outline may help to hide the weird face shape... But it would not fix the rest of the list.

[Person012345]

leucome a écrit :

Person012345 a écrit :

Well, I will give my comment a caveat that if they do manage to make them look like the show then that will be fine, but I was talking about the style as it is right now, lack of cel-shading, bad lighting, etc.

Light is a pretty close simulation of reality ...If it look bad it usually mean that the model do not have the proper shape to produce the shadows and shade our brain expect to see.

The game is not based on reality. It doesnt need to, nor should it, look realistic.

[leucome]

I know it do not need to be realistic..

Realistic or imaginary ... It need to fool our brain to think it look good and pretty. Which the old model were able to do but not the new one.

[Einsty]

Person012345 a écrit :

leucome a écrit :

Light is a pretty close simulation of reality ...If it look bad it usually mean that the model do not have the proper shape to produce the shadows and shade our brain expect to see.

The game is not based on reality. It doesnt need to, nor should it, look realistic.

That's why the models should be reverted. The new ones are an attempt at more realistic style and they really landed in the uncanny valley. I wouldn't use the two words as often if they wouldn't describe the models so well. It's not too much different from the old models, a little bit here and there and everywhere, but in the end it's simply off. They no longer look good or healthy.

I can understand that making a believable face in this style can take effort, I know it since I tried with varying levels of success. But come on, devs, can you not see?

[leucome]

So what I meant is that the new model look like creepy dolls because they look like creepy dolls.

A good model look good... even without outline and even without any colour or texture.
Something like this maybe.

http://www.nekomagic.net/figure_news/201104/gsc_yuri07.jpg

. I would not be complaining. if ...
They went realistic and put out model who look like this..
https://www.behance.net/gallery/17537649/sko?utm_medium=email&utm_source=transactional&utm_campaign=project-published

[Chrys]

(So just came back from a busy day of doing stuff and basically, this comment sums it up pretty well: )

leucome a écrit :

This is 100% true the older model were better so much better that i'm 99.999% sure it's not the same artist who made them.

I tried to make it sound not so arsh in my other comment.. But he new model do not have a style problem .. they have a model problem. They are bad sculpt. The volume and face shape is wrong. The profile is wrong..
The eye shape is wrong the nose placement is wrong ..
the pupil the eyelid, the eyelashes, the eyebrows the mouth the lips, the hear . the chin the cheeks , the forehead... The skin tone the eye colour ...Every single piece of those model face have something slightly messed up. I mean even the eyeball is not the right size. They have super big iris on super small eyeball it look like the eyes are gonna pop out and fall on the floor.

I agree, hence why I said "aesthetically" as in, I like the STYLE of the models, them trying to do something less MMD, but I KNOW (and even said before in other comments) that the models themselves are off.
I tried to fix by drawing over them but you can't fix something that is already anatomically incorrect without redoing it completely.
Hence why I tried to explain that "there' still kinks to work out" aka, have the face be less static, give some live to it. (AND PLS PLS DON'T JUST MIRROR THE EYE TEXTURE, THANKS.)

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IN reply to SARDRELLAS

The models NEED to be optional. The majority of the people hate them and the sounds they brought with them, and a lot of us never had frame rate issues in the first place. The models NEED to be optional, and changes like this NEED to be discussed beforehand in the future.

Never disagreed with that. A toggle would be nice but at the same time, for the time being I'm not against the models since it's an okay start to a different aesthetic that could work well with RWBY.

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IN reply to LEUCOME

Overall the look is not directly related to the number of poly or the outline and cell shader. Even in these new models there are places where it's possible to remove useless poly while making them look better at same time.. I think. And also there are many anime look a like games or MMD model that are low poly shaded and still look gorgeous. So..

Other than the face... the model look different but good.

I agree with this. I do modelling myself. I'm not a pro and only had a simple course in school and some tutorial lessons with blender. Hence why I personally prefer Low Poly models with proper texturing and lighting (since you can make it look very good with Subdivision Surface Modifiers + Sculpting ).
The face is the worst offender and the fact that the LIGHT just makes it look less alive and more doll esque. Their faces feel like there is no blood going through them since they get this really weird grey shade to them in a SUNNY BRIGHT ENVIRONMENT. Also their liveless eyes.
I feel if they improved the face and went over the general shading/lighting it would look a lot better. (heck, just use the previous glow lighting if needed )

Also as quick reply for the second comment you made, I personally only mentioned the quad thing because that's what I've been told/learnt when taking my 3D classes, though I agree it's impossible to make models 100% Quad. I only ever got taught that it's eaier to model and rig and in the end it saves you a lot of trouble since the PC would convert it into triangles without you having to clutter everything in triangles. (Or something along those lines, hard to translate from my native language into English and from memory ) Hence why I always thought it'd be smarter to "avoid" tri, since it just makes everyone's lives easier.

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IN reply to Person012345

No, it's not. You can "work it out" all you want so they look less like cheap hentai models, they still won't have the aesthetic of the show and whilst they may be "acceptable" if they work on these style of models, THE MODELS BEFORE WERE GREAT. You will never make me like this style because it's inferior to what was there before.

So... why are you so hung up on the "cheap hentai models" thing? It's just a thing I genuinely wonder about tbh.
Aside from that: I see why you would want to keep the aesthetic of the show BUT they are not INCLINED TO DO SO.
I mean, the first ToyStory videogame on the NES didn't have the same aesthetic than the Movie (though admittadely, making 3D games was tough at the time) but that doesn't mean that it's inherently bad. (Heck, even the Pokemon games are very different on all their media. Like, Pokkén is aesthetically different than XY, which is different than the show, which is different from the Manga. )
I never said I didn't like the Old models, all I'm saying is: "thE NEW ONES ARENT AS BAD AS EVERYONE MAKES THEM OUT TO BE".
Everyone always compares, which bugs me. Yes the old ones were better, but if someone who came from watching the show and bought this for funsies and sees these for the first time they would be like "Hey this is different but I can roll with it".

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IN reply to KAEDE

It's not even a subjective debate. The new models are objectively terrible looking. It's fact not an opinion. Some people are saying things along the line of "In my opinion this thing my 2 years old cousin drew looks better than the Mona Lisa."

The Mona Lisa thing is not a good comparison tho?
Anyway, the MODELS THEMSELVES are objectively bad YES, BUT the AESTHETHIC of them is subjective. I personally, subjectively, do like the idea of them going for a more "mature" and "elegant" and "realistic" look, though it doesn't change that there is issues with the model itself, yes.
Never anywhere in my post did I claim that the MODELS aka the 3D of the face is GOOD, I have only ever been talking about the aestheetic and artistic choices for the models, not the models themselves.

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IN reply to KUPSY

The new models look ok on their own, but not when I compare them to the old ones (other than that annoying glow).. Especially when I look at their new faces. ESPECIALLY Weiss' face.
It's a work in progress though so I just hold some hope for the future,

^^^^^ this.
My entire comment is literally taking in account that I DO NOT COMPARE THEM TO THE OLD ONES AND FEEL THAT THEY ARE OKAY ON THEIR OWN.
Though Weiss' face bothers me less than, e.g. Blake's but that's just because Weiss just gives off this vibe of "eff off I'm royal".

[leucome]

I did try to make a paint over too... with Weiss character and the goal of keeping the shading and not changing it too much.. She still look a little bit like she is day dreaming or something... Maybe with a proper expression.

I posted it in the bug report section because it's bugging me.
It's called... New character face, the analyse...