Ren Underpowered?

[Black]

Am I the only one who thinks Ren should get buffed?
Tell me your opinions! ^_^

[Ember Celica]

Well its just like the show then ;)
Idk though, maybe just all the other characters are really strong.

[brudda]

Personally I think Ren is fairly strong, he doesn't hit very hard, his strength lies in enemy disruption. His whole kit from combos to skills to range attacks is geared toward locking and breaking enemies guards while you or your team can follow up with stronger attacks.

His jump+heavy attack is ridiculously OP where he spins in the air. It stuns lock enemies with a very high chance to create team attacks which pretty disables the enemies (depending on the enemy type).

His Charged mastery is very good, but also very risky to use. Huge aoe damage plus stun (depending on the enemy) and you're invulnerable during the casting animation. Thing is though if you charge it up at the wrong time you will pretty much die at the end. In capabale hands though, this skill is pretty op.

I mean, I would love it if they buffed his damage, it would make him that much more powerful :)

[freshwaterSubmarine]

Ren isn't supposed to go up to things and whack them. He has other tools up his sleeve that are completely overpowered when used right. Draining Aura Charge lets him one-shot Beowolves and two-shot Red Robots in a huge radius while stunning all survivors and making you completely invulerable for half the charge period. Extra Ammo lets you mop up Grimm with absolutely no risk with the SMGs. By using his Ultimate/Heavy Hands/Heavy Synergy to teleport around and create team attacks while invulerable, then using Cyclone to regenerate Ultimate while invulerable, Ren can be constantly immune to damage.

[Zombiespire]

His LH is extremely contextual and not very useful.
His ranged is very inaccurate, and his ranged heavy barely hits anything, and does very little damage.
His ultimate is really longwinded and doesn't do much damage to anything.

[BlueFountain]

I mostly agree with Zombie.

His Ultimate is cool, but unless he's focusing it on one to three enemies or a large group all low on health it's not too useful.

His range is only good if enemies are really close and range special move only useful if there is a large crowd of enemy extremely close to him (which is highly unlikely due to the enemy tendency to form a large perimeter around you which sadly is to a distance he barely hits any and the noted low damage of his shots)

Best he seems to have really is his charged heavy ability can be really damaging to a lot of foes and unless facing robots or mutated Beowulf isn't too hard to get off. I would suggest picking up the aura regen skill for this.

[RobinValentine]

If you are good with Ren you can be in either Ult or Team attack 80% of the time making you almost invulnerable making him the safest character in the game.

[Ka-Datenshi]

Originally posted by Robocubs United:

If you are good with Ren you can be in either Ult or Team attack 80% of the time making you almost invulnerable making him the safest character in the game.

Saved me the trouble of typing up pretty much the exact same thing.

Ren is easily one of the most powerful members of JNPR in Grimm Eclipse, and his multitude of viable specs also means he has the most utiliity of anyone on the team. To put it another way, he's the only character I don't feel nessisary to give extra aura, extra health or even additional ultimate guages to. When he is eventually hit, there's almost always multiple ways for me to escape into pseudo/fully invulnerable states while my aura rapidly recharges, and his upgraded heavy gives him a excellent (and much needed) AoE attack at a fairly minimal cost.

Though you did save me the trouble, Robocubs, I figured I might as well elaborate a bit while I was here for the rest of the folks that feel he's underpowered or otherwise not-up-to-par.

Originally posted by Zombiespire:

His LH is extremely contextual and not very useful.

That's Ren's bread and butter ground combo. Easily the ground combo that any Ren player should be using most (as it gets you into the air, setting you up for Ren's BEST heavy attack). If anything, I was disappointed when they changed Ren so that he could attack after air-dodging. For why? Because he was already very, very powerful. I liked that interesting restriction on his movement/attack combo and felt it was a nice compromised between simply nerfing the damage/utility of his air heavy or accepting it was a bit too good and leaving it as is.

Originally posted by Zombiespire:

His ranged is very inaccurate, and his ranged heavy barely hits anything, and does very little damage.

His ranged isn't for dealing damage.

Originally posted by Zombiespire:

His ultimate is really longwinded and doesn't do much damage to anything.

Originally posted by BlueFountain:

I mostly agree with Zombie.

His Ultimate is cool, but unless he's focusing it on one to three enemies or a large group all low on health it's not too useful.

Much like his range attacks, the purpose of his ultimate isn't primarily for dealing damage either (unless perhaps you've chosen to really go all-out and spec heavily into it; however I found that spec basically played itself and disliked it for that reason). Ren's damage output comes from different avenues than most of the other playable characters, and his ultimate's real purpose is to open up those avenues of damage, as well as enhance his survivability into the neigh-unkillable region.

[Tetsuo9999]

What is the optimal build for him? Are the charge attack and ranged attack skills worth the grind?

[brudda]

Originally posted by Tetsuo9999:

What is the optimal build for him? Are the charge attack and ranged attack skills worth the grind?

I don't know what the optimal build is, but what I go with is: Furious strike, Draining aura charge, survivor, increased aura, and extra ammo.

The charge attack is definitely worth grinding out for. Draining aura, to me, is his #1 skill, almost a must have in any build of his.

Extra ammo, is really dependent on the person. I like it because it keeps the enemy in stunlock a bit longer than normal shots and does some noticeable damage.
This skili is worth it when dealing with the robots, because you can initiate your melee combo, dodge out right before they do their invulnerable move and start shooting them. This will stop what they're doing, then you can get back in and repeat.



Oh and LH is such a great combo, you get to put in more hits onto the enemy before they counter attack, very useful for robots as well. I feel team RWBY should all have this too.

[Tetsuo9999]

What bonus does the charge attack mastery give? I got the draining one, but then the mastery skill disappears.

[brudda]

Originally posted by Tetsuo9999:

What bonus does the charge attack mastery give? I got the draining one, but then the mastery skill disappears.

The other one drains less HP, 25%, and stuns enemies around you. You can still take damage.

[Ka-Datenshi]

Originally posted by Tetsuo9999:

What is the optimal build for him?

Because Ren is capable of more 'viable' specs than most of the playable characters in Grimm Eclipse, 'optimal' rather depends on what exactly you'd like to accomplish and how you'd like to play him as. What I can do is tell you the build I use, the reasons why, and the pros and cons that come along with it.

If I had to sum up this build, it would be: High Risk, High Reward

Ka-Datenshi's 'High Risk, High Reward' Lie Ren Build

The abilities and skills used in this build...
T2 Ultimate Upgrade, 'Improved Warp Strike'
T2 Team Attack Upgrade, 'Improved Cyclone'
T3 Heavy Attack Upgrade, 'Improved Aura Charge' (25% aura drain, not the 50% one)
Faster Aura Regeneration
Heavy Hands
Heavy Synergy
And that's it.

The key thing about this build is that you you'll get the maximum damage-to-aura ratio from using your charged heavy. Also, should you lose all your aura you need only jump into either a Team Attack or a Warp Strike Ultimate while you wait for your aura to recharge; which thanks to the increased regen speed (and crucially a default size aura gauge) takes no longer than the duration of a Team Attack or an Ultimate to recharge.

Now, you may be wondering why I've chosen not to recommend increasing the total aura on a character that drains his own aura attacking, as well as doesn't have increased heath in this build. At first glance, it certainly sounds risky. The catch however is that a larger aura gauge takes longer to recharge, as well as makes no difference in the amount of aura left over after each fully charged heavy is successfully executed. A 25 or 50 percent drain "of your total aura" is still 25 or 50% of that larger aura gauge. It just means you'll be draining away that very aura you spent precious points unlocking.

Then you might wonder why not upgrade the total ultimate pool? Especially if that's going act as the last-ditch defensive manoeuvre. Well, that's where the "High Risk, High Reward" part comes in. Without the invulnerability of 'Draining Aura Charge', getting those charged heavy attacks off IS going to be trickier. And if that's the point of the build, you may ask, why not go all in and commit to the most 'powerful version' of Ren's Charge Heavy; 'Draining Aura Charge'? Well, it has to do primarily with two things.

Firstly, despite the description of 'Improved Aura Charge' suggesting otherwise, it DOES actually increase the single target/cone and AoE damage of the ability. In fact, it increases it to a point where two 'Improved Aura Charges' will actually do slightly more AoE damage than a single 'Draining Aura Charge' (and a LOT MORE single target/cone damage). The only downside is the loss of the invulnerability and the slightly decreased area of effect of the ability. The upside is that you now have an extra point to spend, and overall you're getting more damage for your buck; your aura, that is.

What's more, stunned enemies take additional damage anyway. So after you skilfully get into the middle of a group of enemies and pull off the first 'Improved Aura Charge', the second one will do significantly more damage than the first. It will also be extremely easy to pull off, unlike the first, as the bulk of the enemies you'll be trying to defeat will already be stunned. Completely stationary and unable to lift so much as a claw, blade or gun against you.

Now, quite suddenly, you're doing a LOT more damage than had you been using 'Draining Aura Charge'. Better yet? After you've eliminated that group of enemies, presuming you'd managed to pull off that first charge attack without being hit (really not that hard once you get used to it), you'll still have two more 'Improved Aura Charges' left! So that's more damage right there that the 'Draining Aura Charge' Ren wouldn't have access to. Rather, at that point, that Ren would be running, dodging and waiting for his completely depleted aura to return. You however, are still combat ready. Even able to take a decent blow without instantly keeling over, if need be.

Also, by draining just 25% of your aura, rather than 50%, you're able to justify using the ability against smaller groups, even pesky individual enemies like androids, without potentially leaving yourself excessively vulnerable. Even then, you'll still have two more left in you. And that's presuming your aura hadn't already recharged by then, which with this build it probably has.

Perhaps most importantly though.. the 'Draining Aura Charge' Ren, if hit before using his 'Charge', gets just ONE use of this ability. The 'Improved Aura Charge' Ren however, if hit before using his 'Charge', gets between two and three. Taking advantage of that stunned state to deal massive additional damage is key, so finding yourself suddenly unable to take make fullest use of that state because you now have only something like 45% of your total aura left (a mere 5% too little aura for the 'Draining Aura Charge' Ren to use his follow-up 'Charge') leads to an overall loss of damage and effectiveness.

Finally, thanks to the point distribution, all of this superior damage and faster recovery time doesn't come at the cost of either the effectiveness of the Ultimate, nor the Team Attack. Both will be at Tier 2 so as to unlock their best point-to-effectiveness ratios. This is helpful because while you're engaging single targets (or even small groups) your team attack will be scything through the target of your team attack while doing additional damage to nearby targets (this will also make it less likely that you'll be attacked immediately after the conclusions of a successful team attack), and your Ultimate will do much the same, only with even more damage than had you been short the points needed to elevate it to Tier 2. Additionally a T2 Warp Strike gives your aura plenty of time to recharge, whereas a Tier 1 often cuts it very, very close. Sometimes too close.


Pros

Better Damage-to-Aura Ratio
More overall uses of 'Charge'
Able to take minor damage and still do more damage overall with 'Improved Aura Charge' than with 'Draining Aura Charge' in the same situation
Point distribution allows for points to be added to crucial skills such as Improved Aura Regeneration, Heavy Synergy and a minimum of T2 upgrades for all other abilities
Larger margin for error (room for taking damage) prior to successful use of 'Charge'
More opportunities to exploit damage bonus from stunned state caused by 'Improved Aura Charge' thanks to additional uses of 'Charge'
Faster recovery time between maximum uses of 'Charge'/total aura depletion and full aura, combat-ready state
No loss of effectiveness of either TA or ULT due to available points for both to reach T2 rank
Build also specialises in setting up TAs in truly enormous numbers, so team-friendly utility is self-explanatory
It's an exciting build!


Cons

Default (single) Ultimate Pool amount means keeping that gauge filled is of paramount importance, as Warp Strike is the main defensive manoeuvre (may limit Ultimate use frequency for players that are unable to keep bar consistently filled or nearly filled)

No extra aura or health means no additional margin for mistakes/taking extra hits/misreading certain enemy attack patterns (a single slip-up can lead to very abrupt deaths if not extremely careful/vigilant)

Smaller 'Charge' AoE and no invulnerability while charging 'Charge' compared to T3b, meaning a higher skill level is necessary to pull off successful 'Charge' attacks, especially opening uses

May be a difficult build to master for some players


Notes: To pull off the heavy charged attack most effectively, utilisation of the dash-ground combo is recommended. Air heavy should also be the go-to damage and TA opener, as well as primary Ultimate gauge filler (nothing new to regular/experienced Ren players, obviously). Ranged attacks should be a last resort, or used only for drawing agro. Close-combat is advised for both damage, as well as filling the Ultimate gauge; trying to do either with ranged attacks wastes far too much time. If survival becomes too difficult with this build, adding points into extra aura is NOT RECCOMENDED. Instead, put points towards extra health taking points, if need be, from T2 TA upgrade. While the TA is going to be one of the best single-target and ULT gauge filling means of this build, a T1 Warp Strike often won't provide quite enough time for aura to completely recover compared to a T2 Warp Strike (the latter lasts longer). That said, taking points out of anything will only compromise (drastically so) the effectiveness of this build. And don't even think about taking points from Heavy Synergy.

...

Now, I've experimented with quite a number of Ren builds, and I'm not gonna' claim, even remotely so, that this is 'the best of them all'. There are alternative builds that can put out nearly as much damage as this one and are nowhere near as demanding on the player. That said, they aren't the most interesting of playstyles/builds, and if you can master this one you will be rewarded with being more effective in combat than say the T3 ULT-Build Ren. And especially the 'Draining Aura Charge'-Ren and his damage-traded-for-temporary-invulnerability.

There was one more question that was asked earlier which I'll answer too.

Originally posted by Tetsuo9999:

Are the charge attack and ranged attack skills worth the grind?

The former, depending on if you feel you need the added safety of the invulnerable state, I suppose so. The latter, not really. There's no builds that really enhance that aspect of Ren into being anything more than a last-gasp means of keeping a foe or two at bay. Some people find it useful and nice to have, but ultimately there are better places to spend your points. If you can get by without it, do so. Much like the former, it's something that you only really should use if you feel you absolutely need it to cover for the lacking of something in your playing of Ren (survivability problems, additional albeit poor means of safely regaining ultimate, ect.).

I hope all this has helped anyone that might've been uncertain about Ren and his potential builds/abilities/playstyles. If it has been helpful, or if anyone has questions about this particular build (or indeed about the playstyles of any of the characters), I'll try and answer as many questions as I can.

Until then, I hope anyone that uses this build finds it as enjoyable, effective and exciting as I do, and that you'll let me know as much in the comments below. Always nice to get feedback, after all.

[RobinValentine]

I'm not going to write a guide but i use heavy handed, heavy synergy, upgrade his team attack all the way, upgrade his ult to two because the third level is useless, then put the rest into ult points. ren has tons of multi hit box abilities and you can use them to quickly gey up ur ult gage. doing normal->heavy is a waste cuz you can do dash-?heavy for the same thign but faster then still follow up with a heavy air for tons of hits. just figure out how to set up team attacks with him because 1 team attack gets ur ult all the way up. its low risk high reward style of play. in a perfect world your ult sets up a team attack and a team attack sets up ur ult. he's kind of broken

[Ka-Datenshi]

Originally posted by Robocubs United:

its low risk high reward style of play. in a perfect world your ult sets up a team attack and a team attack sets up ur ult. he's kind of broken

That there is pretty much the sole reason why I play a Ren focused on his charged heavy; because most of his other builds unfortunately really do just about play themselves. You absolutely could spend all your time bouncing between TAs and ULTs if you so desired. The challenge of using a tricky to pull off technique with no extra aura or health.. hell yeah. That's enjoyable.

Originally posted by Robocubs United:

doing normal->heavy is a waste cuz you can do dash-?heavy for the same thign but faster then still follow up with a heavy air for tons of hits.

That's essentially the same for every member of Team JNPR, save Nora, as it happens.

Originally posted by Robocubs United:

he's kind of broken

To be fair, Nora can just about kill anything in a single LLLH combo when specced correctly. Jaune's 100% attack buff makes him a DPS beast, even before his charged heavy (a non-aura draining version of Ren's, basically) and air heavy comes into play. Then Pyrrha's all-rounder spec gives her one of the best ultimates in the game as well as an extremely powerful extra/final heavy. And then of course there's her chain-counter-stun spec.

So ultimately just about every member of Team JNPR has at least one 'build' that's probably bordering on 'broken'. No need to single Ren out on that account. Honestly though, if they just patched the air-dash-heavy-cancel (Heavy-Dash) back into the game solely for Team RWBY, that would go a long way towards balancing the teams. Ever since that was removed the members of Team RWBY have been rather grounded compared to their Team JNPR counterparts; JNPR literally have the bulk of their most powerful/useful attacks either lead into air combos, or are air-heavies themselves. Usually both.

I really do miss bouncing around as Blake and blasting along over the heads of Beowolves as Yang, truly I do.

On the flip-side though, Pyrrha, Jaune and Ren all have, effectively, no noteworthy ranged abilities. So when you think about it that way, their melee hyper-effectiveness makes a bit more sense.

Aaaand if we were to assign quasi-arbitrary points to each team's ranged abilities...


Team RWBY Effective Ranged Abilities

Effective Abilities: Stun-beam Blake, Tri-beam Blake, T2 ranged Weiss, T3 ranged Weiss, Photon Barrage Yang and, to a lesser extent, Dust Blast Ruby.

Tri-beam, Photon Barrage and Dust Blast only worth 0.5 points each, due to less than ideal damage, too many points required and less than ideal damage and effects, respectively.

Total score: 4.5


Team JNPR Effective Ranged Abilities

Effective Abilities: Grenade Shower Nora.

Nora's ranged only really maximally effective after activation of double-damage ability. 0.25 point reduction.

Total score: 0.75

[freshwaterSubmarine]

Yo, I wrote a guide for Ren, since he's difficult and confusing. Ka-Datenshi, is it all right for me to list your build in my guide (as Ka-Datenshi's 'High Risk, High Reward' Lie Ren Build)?