Detailed discussion on animal traps

[Zuleica]

I'm copying my post from General here along with the few replies it had so the topic can be continued in the proper forum....

I've posted about the need for multiple avenues to satisfy the basic survival needs. Specifically this post addresses the need for multiple routes to fill the need for protein. I'm mostly speaking of early and mid game, not when you are raising animals for high level protein and eggs.

Sources of protein currently are;
1. protein bars - 100% RNG from crates/bags, which are much more scarse in hardcore
2. rabbits - can only either find ones stuck on terrain or use (in survival) hard to come by ammo for minimal protein.
3. chickens - shoot with the same issues as rabbits, or chase and catch. The later is a good skill to learn but depending upon the area and the spawn may result in large amounts of time spent for little return (level 0 chickens, like rabbits, provide very little sustenence).
4. wolves - single steak or liver (sometimes but rarely two) but requires ammo that in hardcore is not plentiful. Risk is high for anything but level 1 and 2 using a pistol. Shotgun does the trick but shotgun ammo is rare, especially rare in hardcore. It's not a solid plan for protein. I've seen only one level 1 wolf for example in many days of hardcore play.
5. bears - not worth the ammo nor especially the risk in hardcore, though the protein recieved is often quite substantial.
6. eggs - mid to later game protein and by that time not really necessary

So my suggestions all revolve around traps and snares that can be built outside of the RNG fickleness (some RNG in distribution of fiber and blueberries but still so plentiful that it shouldn't be a factor).

1. Small animal (rabbit, chicken) snares. Uses some number of sticks, cordage, and blueberry for bait. This trap captures live animal, can be picked up then killed or kept alive. Has relatively small chance of success. I'd say apples and tomatoes also but that would be a huge waste to use those in a trap.

2. Large animal (wolf) snares. Uses some amouont of scrap metal (for wire), logs, and perhaps a live chicken for bait (perhaps you get the dead chicken as well as the wolf so the tradeoff is a bit more in your favor). This trap captures live wolf but only one pistol shot is required to kill it in the trap. Has relatively small chance of success.

3. Spanish Windlass type trap (as someone else suggested). For small animals, uses sticks, logs, cordage, and blueberry bait. Has a much higher chance of success than the small animal snare but kills the animal which starts its spoilage timer.

4. Deadfall of two sizes; small and large. Uses some amount of logs and cordage. No bait, set in animal paths. Kills animal, spoilage timer starts. Fairly high chance of success.

5. Arrow trap, small animal only. Uses sticks and cordage, blueberry bait. Kills animal always and starts spoilage timer.

6. Eventually, when there are bodies of water, fish traps.

Traps success is updated during the respawn time...every 5 real minutes for example.
Live captures die after one day/night cycle and spoilage timer starts.
Traps have a chance of being sprung with no capture.
Traps have a small chance of being damaged during capture. Damaged traps can be picked up with 50% loss of mats.
Traps do NOT have waypoint markers. You set them, you remember where you set them. Forget where and too bad, so sad. :)
If a trap has a spoiled animal in it you can still harvest it for spoiled meat, hide, feathers, fat, etc.

Traps and snares have a low success rate but the time and risk management come in when you have to decide if to spend your time checking and resetting long trap lines vice hunting, bag/crate looting, etc. Survival becomes more a matter of your decisions and less that of RNG.

Originally posted by John Raeder:

Good ideas, pit traps maybe too? Those might work on wolves, bears, hunters, and you if you forget where you put it. Those might also be used to close off routes of approach ("Kill me! I'm here!") to help keep locations safer. I have had a lot of meat spoil on me so I would suggest a longer spoilage timer. Also possibly finding a snare trap with remains of a rabbit/chicken when a wolf or bear ate it.

Originally posted by DubWine:

+1 for all of above but also could be able to use hammer on damaged traps at cost of mats just like other construction pieces

Adding to this:
1. Allow traps to be baited or not baited with a much lower chance of success if not baited. This provides tradeoff between more traps vs using potentially scarce food for bait.

2. Force a radius around traps where you can't place another. This again forces a tradeoff of time it takes to service the trap line vs effectiveness of a shorter one. It also prevents gaming the system by placing a bunch of traps in. A clump to avoid the time cost and the situational awareness to remember where you put them.

[MV-Play]

I was thinking in posting something about different traps and snares, but here is a very complete version. I hope these ideas make it into the game. +1

[Zuleica]

And another thought...hunters could discover your trap lines and destroy them.

[LORD_K]

I liked the detailing of the idea.
You had already discussed traps, but not with this richness of detail.
If DEV does at least part of the traps, just like those that catch small animals would be a good start. I think the question of lakes and rivers will still be long, it would take a lot to do, I think.

[LORD_K]

And some trap for hunters?
A trap with a rope loop? That the hunter hangs upside down ...

[LORD_K]

Originally posted by Zuleica:

And another thought...hunters could discover your trap lines and destroy them.

aaah no it, plz.
I make work for hunter destroy? CHEAT of hunter.
Are Kindding?

[Zuleica]

Originally posted by AFK:

Originally posted by Zuleica:

And another thought...hunters could discover your trap lines and destroy them.

aaah no it, plz.
I make work for hunter destroy? CHEAT of hunter.
Are Kindding?

No, I wasn't kidding. I figure the hunters would be angry that you were out trapping 'their' animals and destroy your traps if they found them. Seems reasonable if one day they're going to attack your base. Right?

[LORD_K]

I did not like the idea of destroying my traps, so what's the use of having them?
That way I'm going to end up hungry.

[John Raeder]

Or they could ambush you when you go to check your line

[loriaw]

I'd be good with this with two changes. 1) Setting trap lines where chickens, rabbits, or wolves are found should not be a low chance of success for harvesting an animal. It's something that has worked for centuries, with a decent chance of a harvest ~ or it wouldn't still be in use. 2) Spoiled meat should work as wolf bait, with the proviso that it also includes the trap being destroyed by a bear.

I'm definitely not in favor of hunters destroying traps unless THEY have to set them and we can destroy theirs. As it is, they don't seem to have any requirements to feed themselves, keep themselves warm, or tiptoe around the very same predators that consider us as snacks. Do they have special deoderant or something that protects them lol?

Otherwise, yes, traps/snares would be a great addition regardless of mats required (as long as a workbench isn't necessary since that would really eliminate any need for traps by that point in easy/regular levels). Fishing, definitely a +1, and I'd add swapping out some of the predators for other prey such as deer.

I'm enjoying the game now, but I'm really still waiting to see what direction CG takes it. Right now it's more looting and shoot everything that moves rather than actual survival. Just my personal preference mind you, but an endless shooting gallery isn't quite my style. I'm much more into aiming for a long term play that follows through with different challenges instead of a "Groundhog Day" repetition.

[Zuleica]

Originally posted by loriaw:

I'd be good with this with two changes. 1) Setting trap lines where chickens, rabbits, or wolves are found should not be a low chance of success for harvesting an animal. It's something that has worked for centuries, with a decent chance of a harvest ~ or it wouldn't still be in use. 2) Spoiled meat should work as wolf bait, with the proviso that it also includes the trap being destroyed by a bear.

I'm definitely not in favor of hunters destroying traps unless THEY have to set them and we can destroy theirs. As it is, they don't seem to have any requirements to feed themselves, keep themselves warm, or tiptoe around the very same predators that consider us as snacks. Do they have special deoderant or something that protects them lol?

Otherwise, yes, traps/snares would be a great addition regardless of mats required (as long as a workbench isn't necessary since that would really eliminate any need for traps by that point in easy/regular levels). Fishing, definitely a +1, and I'd add swapping out some of the predators for other prey such as deer.

I'm enjoying the game now, but I'm really still waiting to see what direction CG takes it. Right now it's more looting and shoot everything that moves rather than actual survival. Just my personal preference mind you, but an endless shooting gallery isn't quite my style. I'm much more into aiming for a long term play that follows through with different challenges instead of a "Groundhog Day" repetition.

What I meant by "low chance" was not a sure thing, for certain much lower without bait.

I'd hope that eventually the hunters actually hunt animals and they can be attacked and killed by predators. It would be fun if there was actually a competition for the animals and the hunters get more aggressive when they see or hear your hunting or find your traps.

I found in normal mode I just gun down everything that moves, it's easier than avoiding them.
However in hardcore I'm always on the verge of a shortage of ammo so I try and only engage predators when absolutely necessary. That takes away some of the "shooting gallery" aspect. And since ammo is harder to come by you turn toward other protein sources such as eggs and raised chickens...which means growing tomatoes and building a well or two.

[loriaw]

Originally posted by Zuleica:

Originally posted by loriaw:

I'd be good with this with two changes. 1) Setting trap lines where chickens, rabbits, or wolves are found should not be a low chance of success for harvesting an animal. It's something that has worked for centuries, with a decent chance of a harvest ~ or it wouldn't still be in use. 2) Spoiled meat should work as wolf bait, with the proviso that it also includes the trap being destroyed by a bear.

I'm definitely not in favor of hunters destroying traps unless THEY have to set them and we can destroy theirs. As it is, they don't seem to have any requirements to feed themselves, keep themselves warm, or tiptoe around the very same predators that consider us as snacks. Do they have special deoderant or something that protects them lol?

Otherwise, yes, traps/snares would be a great addition regardless of mats required (as long as a workbench isn't necessary since that would really eliminate any need for traps by that point in easy/regular levels). Fishing, definitely a +1, and I'd add swapping out some of the predators for other prey such as deer.

I'm enjoying the game now, but I'm really still waiting to see what direction CG takes it. Right now it's more looting and shoot everything that moves rather than actual survival. Just my personal preference mind you, but an endless shooting gallery isn't quite my style. I'm much more into aiming for a long term play that follows through with different challenges instead of a "Groundhog Day" repetition.

What I meant by "low chance" was not a sure thing, for certain much lower without bait.

I'd hope that eventually the hunters actually hunt animals and they can be attacked and killed by predators. It would be fun if there was actually a competition for the animals and the hunters get more aggressive when they see or hear your hunting or find your traps.

I found in normal mode I just gun down everything that moves, it's easier than avoiding them.
However in hardcore I'm always on the verge of a shortage of ammo so I try and only engage predators when absolutely necessary. That takes away some of the "shooting gallery" aspect. And since ammo is harder to come by you turn toward other protein sources such as eggs and raised chickens...which means growing tomatoes and building a well or two.

Not a sure thing I could handle, but if it's an area with rabbits or chickens running everywhere, there should be at least a 50-50 chance.

For things such as gardening, I'd rather see a few changes. Start a garden in the ground instead of a grow box ~ with a chance or rabbits or chickens (and hopefully deer!) eating the plants/tomatoes if there is no fence. Maybe a variety of plants instead of just tomatoes and cotton.

I'd like to see fewer predators, but with maybe a higher danger/strength balanced with a better yield to balance out the risk and ammo use. I'd also like to see smoking meat as a means of preserving instead of the high tech frig.

That's why I didn't understand the lack of traps/snares or bows/arrows initially. Subsistence implies scratching out a bare survival, but in this game it means building and crafting items that most people truly couldn't manage without a lot of help. Seeds gathered from wild plants and planted in a garden, drying or smoking food to put away for later, learning to work with other humans against common threats (why is the player the only lone wolf while the hunters gather together like a wolf pack??) ... etc. Fire alone should help deter wildlife (while acting as a beacon for other humans). A foundation without walls being 'safe' confuses me.

I see SO much potential ~ but the current options raise so many questions. Honestly, the items we're crafting now should be a long term goal instead of something that can be achieved in a few days (even though this is a different reality). Finding a natural spring or filtering lake water would be more of a 'subsistence' level than creating a well head that drills itself and runs on power created by a base command unit created from a few pieces of wood and metal ... just as a windmill or water wheel to power the generator (which should be 'found' and hauled back to one's base rather than crafted) ... that sort of thing. Having learned many of these things IRL, and knowing the learning curve, it is rather difficult to wrap my head around 'subsistence = wells, solar panels, and high end weapons from incredibly low end base materials. Even the 'planks' created from raw wood would be beyond the capability of most without locating a sawmill and powering it back up. I get that in today's society people want 'instant' everything; the reality is most wouldn't last 3 days without incredible luck and working together to pool both resources and knowledge (and those who actually have the skills to do most of what is in this game simply don't exist ... even master craftsman go buy mats instead of crafting them from raw materials).

[Zuleica]

Great idea here for extending animal traps to traps for hunters when they start raiding your base. And traps used by hunters to attempt to attack the player.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/418030/discussions/2/133256758572853672/

Also an important use of small game traps early on in order to provide hide from rabbits to make the bow.

A small game trap with no bait has a small chance of catching a rabbit or chicken. If you add a blueberry as bait the chance increases for getting a rabbit. If you add a seed (cotton or tomato) the chance goes up for catching a chicken. This gives you some of the early materials for bows and arrows...and of course replace nails with scrap metal found on the ground.

[G-pa]

what about setting traps animal runs???? especially in the snow covered areas.....

[John Raeder]

Good discussion lor, however many things in the game are placeholders for what will eventually be there, so don't despair. I see windmills or waterwheels in place of the generators and solar panels, smoking meat and maybe a makeshift cold storage by digging a basement for the fridge, etc. I am with you on the overly large number of predators and lack of prey (deer spring to mind). Thre dev has also mentioned that guns will be more difficult to craft in the future.

[Professor]

The notion that hunters can steal whatever has been caugt in your traps is interesting. What about having a "Zone" around your base where your traps can be set? This would be a rather large area around your base. Set the same Zone limts around the hunter bases for them setitng their own animal traps. Now... where your Zone overlaps with the Zones of Hunter base animal trap placement Zones, well... those overlapping areas would be fair game for them stealing our caught animals, and allow us to steal theirs as well. But only where those trap setting Zones overlap.