Curious about accuracy of in game weapon stats.

[ImHelping]

So I know unnumbered bars are often just a broad strokes sort of listing in most games with such, where you can have a hunting shotgun claim it's accuracy is higher than the 96/2 rifle. But I'm more curious about listings for actually comparable weapons.

For example. Saving first so I don't waste my cash on experiments. I was comparing the 9x18 Fora-12, to the 9x19 HPSS, with the fine tools grade upgrades.

According to the in game stats, the tiny Fora was VASTLY Superior to the HPSS in all ways except having one less bullet capacity, and one less bar of damage.

"Huh, if it's that good. Maybe I'll see what the stats look like with the mod that changes the Fora-12 to 9x19 ammo" and… Exact same in game stats listing and comparisons as before. Well that was pointless?

Then I reloaded the save, tried it the other way around downgrading the HPSS to use 9x18 ammo, and the damage stats were again exactly the same as before.

So… What? Are the in game stats that useless? Is the difference in 9x19 and 9x18 actually just that tiny? Why is the "smaller" Fora-12 with the same investment in upgrades as the HPSS so much better in every listed way except "Oh, you have one less bullet and 1 bar less damage" (I expect it would be better with calibration tools upgrades, but come on.)

As a somewhat related question, when is it generally better to pick Recoil vs handling vs flatness (I know Flatness is drop off distance). Particularly for semi-auto or burst fire rather than just saying **** it and spray and pray with full auto handguns or rifle fire.

[Milk]

Handling is how fast the gun goes back to a still ironsight. Good for tap firing. Bad for automatic fire. Flatness determines how flat your bullet travels, so you don't have to aim as high.

Pistols generally don't differ at all in terms of damage, except in the case of 45. You shoot a guy in the head with a makarov, bout as effective as with an M9.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Angry Floof:

Handling is how fast the gun goes back to a still ironsight. Good for tap firing. Bad for automatic fire. Flatness determines how flat your bullet travels, so you don't have to aim as high.

Yeah I know what the stats do, it was more a question of "Okay it wants me to pick handling vs Recoil, or accuracy Vs Flatness." for the average assault rifle you will be using all fire modes for.

Originally posted by Angry Floof:

Pistols generally don't differ at all in terms of damage, except in the case of 45. You shoot a guy in the head with a makarov, bout as effective as with an M9.

At least that certainly clears up the damage question in regards to non .45 pistols, though still leaves me wondering about things like the cheaper Fora-12 has drastically superior statistics across the board compared to the on paper "better" HPSS. (And if that changes with final tier upgrades, that still leaves the underlying question).

For how much people gush about the March/UDP, I thought pistol choice would matter more for comparing the rest. Though I guess "Eh whatever, they are all roughly the same except for attachments" certainly makes choice of non .45 handgun more a matter of taste, which is hardly a bad thing.

Interesting contrast of "THIS gun is the BEST gun!" vs "The rest of them? Just use whatever you feel like I guess"" in a community. Though that is hardly unique to Stalker.

[Milk]

Dunno then, it's up to you. Draft your AR the way you want.

The weapon distinction is much more apparent in modded versions tho.

[ImHelping]

Originally posted by Angry Floof:

Dunno then, it's up to you. Draft your AR the way you want.

The weapon distinction is much more apparent in modded versions tho.

While a vague answer, it is a good answer.

It's always so comforting when games with such a stone wall to entry reputation, turn out to be nowhere near as obsessively granular details as their rep like to portray. Less obsessing over numbers and names, more just actually getting out there and playing the game and seeing what happens.

Though Mutants feeling like they have way too much beef on their bones when playing on Master even unmodded is certainly true much of the time.

Fortunately, treating single and paired Snorks like I'm playing DOOM has served me well, even as I'm rolling my eyes at how most of the time shotgunning them point blank in the side as the miss their leap (after shooting at their face via iron sight as they conveniently run at me in a straight line) still takes quite a bit of shotgun hits.

Then I'll somehow two shot them by lazily hip firing one in passing and wonder why my effort to success ratio is so backwards.

Hopefully things improve on the "Oh my goodness, just die already" front for Snorks and Bleeders before they start ganging up on me too much to avoid their incredibly painful hits in my baby sunrise armor.

EDIT: Well today I learned my casual newbie self has an easier time fighting and killing two bloodsuckers at once than one snork despite the same guns, isn't this a bit backwards from their reputation?

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

Originally posted by Angry Floof:

Dunno then, it's up to you. Draft your AR the way you want.

The weapon distinction is much more apparent in modded versions tho.

While a vague answer, it is a good answer.

It's always so comforting when games with such a stone wall to entry reputation, turn out to be nowhere near as obsessively granular details as their rep like to portray. Less obsessing over numbers and names, more just actually getting out there and playing the game and seeing what happens.

Though Mutants feeling like they have way too much beef on their bones when playing on Master even unmodded is certainly true much of the time.

Fortunately, treating single and paired Snorks like I'm playing DOOM has served me well, even as I'm rolling my eyes at how most of the time shotgunning them point blank in the side as the miss their leap (after shooting at their face via iron sight as they conveniently run at me in a straight line) still takes quite a bit of shotgun hits.

Then I'll somehow two shot them by lazily hip firing one in passing and wonder why my effort to success ratio is so backwards.

Hopefully things improve on the "Oh my goodness, just die already" front for Snorks and Bleeders before they start ganging up on me too much to avoid their incredibly painful hits in my baby sunrise armor.

EDIT: Well today I learned my casual newbie self has an easier time fighting and killing two bloodsuckers at once than one snork despite the same guns, isn't this a bit backwards from their reputation?

IIRC snorks have more health than bloodsuckers, and they also have a bit of bugginess regarding their attacks. I'm a vet of the game and I'd still rather fight suckers than snorks. Suckers don't tend to hit very hard, and won't stay at point blank to repeatedly hit you the way a snork will, they also don't move their head as much while moving.

[Pigeons555]

Like some have said, pistol choice other than hard hitting .45ACP pistols doesn't really matter, and even then, all of Nimble's pistols are pretty much in the same high tier. But March is the best just for that RoF. That said, the Steppe Eagle is still my favorite Nimble pistol.

The Fora-12 has godamn awful reliability by default, at least in the previous games it did. I've had one jam on the 2nd shot, reload, and then jam before it even fired a shot, requiring another reload. That alone offset higher stats for me anyday.

I believe accuracy stats do not list first shot accuracy, rather it is a conglomerate of a bunch of stuff like recoil and crap. Don't trust the accuracy stat, but obviously, higher accuracy is still better, just more in the shot grouping than the shot accuracy.

Personally, I prefer the Browning Hi-Power (HPSS) because I swear the gun is damn accurate. (Plus it was completely broken in SoC) I usually don't glance at other, non- .45ACP pistols like the Martha (Beretta M9) other than the Honorary PMm, I love that gun.

Basically, use what you want. This is a game against AI, so even with weapons like the AKS-74U (♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate that gun), you can't possibly get destroyed consistently. I like using the Hi-Power so I use the Hi-Power, Fora-12's better stats be damned.


Recoil is recoil. If you are going to pump your RoF up, you want low recoil to go with it, otherwise your gun is probably going to go off-planet when your weapon's bolt breaks the sound barrier.

Handling is how fast your crosshairs regain their accuracy after moving and doing anything that messes with it. If you want to run and gun and cap mutants left and right, you want handling, though it usually isn't first pick because of how neglible a half second can be sometimes.

I'm not entirely sure that rechambering a weapon to use smaller or larger bullets affects damage in this game, and rechambering a 9x18 and a 9x19 isn't the best test in compaing relative power to each other. It really is more for convenience.

The unique Tunder S14 "Storm" uses way smaller 5.45x39 and it expectedly does a tad less damage than the normal 9x39. And the unique MP5 Frasier (Cutter) uses .45ACP instead of 9x19 so it does way more damage (way way more damage)

Originally posted by ImHelping:

Originally posted by Angry Floof:

Dunno then, it's up to you. Draft your AR the way you want.

The weapon distinction is much more apparent in modded versions tho.

While a vague answer, it is a good answer.

It's always so comforting when games with such a stone wall to entry reputation, turn out to be nowhere near as obsessively granular details as their rep like to portray. Less obsessing over numbers and names, more just actually getting out there and playing the game and seeing what happens.

Though Mutants feeling like they have way too much beef on their bones when playing on Master even unmodded is certainly true much of the time.

Fortunately, treating single and paired Snorks like I'm playing DOOM has served me well, even as I'm rolling my eyes at how most of the time shotgunning them point blank in the side as the miss their leap (after shooting at their face via iron sight as they conveniently run at me in a straight line) still takes quite a bit of shotgun hits.

Then I'll somehow two shot them by lazily hip firing one in passing and wonder why my effort to success ratio is so backwards.

Hopefully things improve on the "Oh my goodness, just die already" front for Snorks and Bleeders before they start ganging up on me too much to avoid their incredibly painful hits in my baby sunrise armor.

EDIT: Well today I learned my casual newbie self has an easier time fighting and killing two bloodsuckers at once than one snork despite the same guns, isn't this a bit backwards from their reputation?

Start worshipping your Knife for mutant killing. Snorks die easily to the Knife, 1-3 slashes should be enough because I swear they have an innate bullet resistance. Hell, everything dies easily to the Knife. I pretty much only use guns on mutants like Bloodsuckers and Chimeras, but even then I still slash them if they get too close and they start getting touchy with me. Which they do.

The only mutant that seems to have too much HP is the Pseudogiant, but at least in that case, it makes sense because it's a damn Pseudogiant. But coming from SoC, where a Tunder 5.45 could drop one in a magazine and a half (like 30 damn bullets), it took me 8 VOG-25 grenades and around 200 rounds from the Storm to drop the first Pseudogiant I found. Rat bastard.

[kaay]

The type of the ammo used will not affect the stats shown when you examine the weapon.
Very easy to test this when switching to different types of ammo on the same weapon, for example using armor piercing ammo will have a huge impact on armor wearing enemies, but it wont show any difference when you examine the stat bars.
Its not an ideal system for detail lovers but it kinda makes sense, the actual damage is given by the weapon itself, the type of ammo used will not change the stats of the wep, but it will have different effects on different types of enemies and equipment. Its like using a sponge bullet in a high power weapon, the stats of the weapon are still great but the bullet wont cause any damage.

Its very hard for the game to show you the stat altering details of different ammo because the actual damage depends on the enemy you are using it against.

Also in this game flatness adds to the damage and sometimes accuracy (as it is normal).
Not a good idea to "spray with full auto" in this game, because the devs for whatever reason didnt want the game to be played like that so they added all sort of penalties to this playstyle.
There was a lot of ink flowing about the "bullet sponge" behavior of enemies....most of it is due to shooting on the run gun blazing full auto Rambo playstyle.

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by kaay:

The type of the ammo used will not affect the stats shown when you examine the weapon.
Very easy to test this when switching to different types of ammo on the same weapon, for example using armor piercing ammo will have a huge impact on armor wearing enemies, but it wont show any difference when you examine the stat bars.
Its not an ideal system for detail lovers but it kinda makes sense, the actual damage is given by the weapon itself, the type of ammo used will not change the stats of the wep, but it will have different effects on different types of enemies and equipment. Its like using a sponge bullet in a high power weapon, the stats of the weapon are still great but the bullet wont cause any damage.

Its very hard for the game to show you the stat altering details of different ammo because the actual damage depends on the enemy you are using it against.

Actually it's not very hard. Just show the stats as 'in a void'. IE, no environmental modifiers, and add an indicator of penetration. The real issue is that the characteristics regarding penetration and such aren't actually a factor of the weapon, but of the ammo's inbuilt characteristics.
Stalker has a signifigant issue where rounds of roughly equivalent damage can end up doing nothing compared to each other because they can't penetrate. 9x18 vs 9x19 is a good example of this. 9x18 can take 16+ rounds to the chest to kill a guy in medium armor. 9x19, which, according to the stat bars isn't much more powerful damage wise, would do the same in about half that number of shots, because while the 9x18 doesn't relaibly penetrate the armor, the 9x19 does.
That is where the real value in rechambering comes from, and why it mostly shows up as an upgrade on pistols.

[ImHelping]

Thank's for the insights. At the very least the basic concept of "Bigger numbers = Better" certainly still applies to ammo, even if the game itself makes no effort to demonstrate this information in a practical manner. (Variant ammo at least, is clear in purpose).

Single fire mode gun usage with upgraded starter guns missing wild dogs and zombies making no attempts to dodge is hardly "spray n pray". So that's hardly my problem and seems more down to my new 96/2 having a crosshair comparable to "Regular shooters" when when I'm moving is the more important factor.

"Careful semi automatic with my attached scope 74/2! garbage. Wildly smashing M1 hipfire with my 92/6 oh look dead, dead, dead, all the zombies are dead before I even have to reload. Dogs don't reach me even after single firing an entire clip at them, etc"

Though I do find the catchphrasses about blaming people who spran n pray ironic given how much the veteran player base heaps praises on the .45 handgun that can be turned full auto over the one that can't.

Obviously in any game, not just mindlessly mashing the trigger means better shooting. But I am very, very glad for over the years learning the lesson not to fully take "Don't spray n pray LOL" at face value. As usually the real trick to that has not as much to do with player skill, but you can't take advantage of that fact without some measure of skill to tell the difference.

It has certainly lessened the amount of quickloads I use to mostly "whoops I fell off a thing I'm trying to climb" in my last playsessions.

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

Thank's for the insights. At the very least the basic concept of "Bigger numbers = Better" certainly still applies to ammo, even if the game itself makes no effort to demonstrate this information in a practical manner. (Variant ammo at least, is clear in purpose).

Single fire mode gun usage with upgraded starter guns missing wild dogs and zombies making no attempts to dodge is hardly "spray n pray". So that's hardly my problem and seems more down to my new 96/2 having a crosshair comparable to "Regular shooters" when when I'm moving is the more important factor.

"Careful semi automatic with my attached scope 74/2! garbage. Wildly smashing M1 hipfire with my 92/6 oh look dead, dead, dead, all the zombies are dead before I even have to reload. Dogs don't reach me even after single firing an entire clip at them, etc"

Though I do find the catchphrasses about blaming people who spran n pray ironic given how much the veteran player base heaps praises on the .45 handgun that can be turned full auto over the one that can't.

Obviously in any game, not just mindlessly mashing the trigger means better shooting. But I am very, very glad for over the years learning the lesson not to fully take "Don't spray n pray LOL" at face value. As usually the real trick to that has not as much to do with player skill, but you can't take advantage of that fact without some measure of skill to tell the difference.

It has certainly lessened the amount of quickloads I use to mostly "whoops I fell off a thing I'm trying to climb" in my last playsessions.

There is a difference between spray n pray and burst firing. That said, if you are having accuracy issues with a full size ak, you modified files somewhere, because the only sightlines long enough to actually cause issues in vanilla CoP with full size rifles are such that you are outside vanilla A-life switch distance anyway.

[ImHelping]

Oh no, totally was using full auto. I love the fact it has a 2 burst option and certainly use it primarily. But it's so very clear how my playing fast and loose with the 96/2 full auto mode hip fire lets me get away with a bunch of stuff careful semi-auto single fire clicking via scope with an even more upgraded 72/4 didn't.

Obviously I miss MORE if I go hog wild with the firing even with the 96/2 compared to careful shooting. But that doesn't change the fact that still gets me more hits and kills, than my most careful of shooting with prior guns just by virtue of video game statistics.

It's a fresh install with no mods regardless. But then this may all be my tendency to often have a bizzaro world skill curve in play as much as anything. Or maybe putting too much faith in attached scopes compared to "My hipfire crosshair turned red, pull the trigger" feedback.

Either way, I'm somewhat safe from "Git Gud" worries because that would be for if I wasn't succeeding at all. Rather than my current increase in success.

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by ImHelping:

Oh no, totally was using full auto. I love the fact it has a 2 burst option and certainly use it primarily. But it's so very clear how my playing fast and loose with the 96/2 full auto mode hip fire lets me get away with a bunch of stuff careful semi-auto single fire clicking via scope with an even more upgraded 72/4 didn't.

Obviously I miss MORE if I go hog wild with the firing even with the 96/2 compared to careful shooting. But that doesn't change the fact that still gets me more hits and kills, than my most careful of shooting with prior guns just by virtue of video game statistics.

It's a fresh install with no mods regardless. But then this may all be my tendency to often have a bizzaro world skill curve in play as much as anything. Or maybe putting too much faith in attached scopes compared to "My hipfire crosshair turned red, pull the trigger" feedback.

Either way, I'm somewhat safe from "Git Gud" worries because that would be for if I wasn't succeeding at all. Rather than my current increase in success.

I was more referring to the comments about the auto .45.

[kaay]

Surprised and pleased this thread didnt turn into the usual "combat in Stalker is garbage, you have to use this or that mod that fixes everything".
Over the last few years ive accumulated a large amount of hatred from players, because i defended the vanilla combat a bit too passionately....also defended some mods combat systems eagerly (like Misery, Sigerous and CoC) which earned me some more hate, some of it deserved because i can and will be a jerk from time to time.

Anyway, to ImHelping, the few main "tricks" that helped me stay alive and enjoy this game series and its mods could be counted on the fingers of one hand:
-when possible, dont shoot while moving (shoot while crouching is the best)...thats arguably the best advice i can think of, because even at point blank, a shot taken while moving can have no result
-using headphones will help you figure where shots and enemies are coming from (dont use any surround gadgetry)
-artifacts are a huge source of overpower (that for some reason many players decide to ignore)
-headshots

and thats about it

[JtDarth]

Originally posted by kaay:

Surprised and pleased this thread didnt turn into the usual "combat in Stalker is garbage, you have to use this or that mod that fixes everything".
Over the last few years ive accumulated a large amount of hatred from players, because i defended the vanilla combat a bit too passionately....also defended some mods combat systems eagerly (like Misery, Sigerous and CoC) which earned me some more hate, some of it deserved because i can and will be a jerk from time to time.

Anyway, to ImHelping, the few main "tricks" that helped me stay alive and enjoy this game series and its mods could be counted on the fingers of one hand:
-when possible, dont shoot while moving (shoot while crouching is the best)...thats arguably the best advice i can think of, because even at point blank, a shot taken while moving can have no result
-using headphones will help you figure where shots and enemies are coming from (dont use any surround gadgetry)
-artifacts are a huge source of overpower (that for some reason many players decide to ignore)
-headshots

and thats about it

Need to correct you on why you accumulated hatred. You accumulated hatred for apparent overly elitist views (often purism related) and constant bad phrasing that implied you believed your viewpoint to be the only valid one, based on the interactions I've had with you. That and you tend to go on tangents that end up almost entirely off the original context.

[kaay]

Originally posted by DarthNachoz:

Need to correct you on why you accumulated hatred. You accumulated hatred for apparent overly elitist views (often purism related) and constant bad phrasing that implied you believed your viewpoint to be the only valid one, based on the interactions I've had with you. That and you tend to go on tangents that end up almost entirely off the original context.

That seems to be an explanation of your feelings towards my posts, im sure other players would find different reasons for hate...or lets put it more mildly, dislike.
Its all very subjective in the end.
The whole point of two or more people having an argument over something, is that they believe their point of view to be "the valid one".
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but if said opinion is not confronted to other opinions in arguments, the opinion is worth nothing.
I enjoy arguing opinions, and i dont do it with malice unless i respond to an agressive attack that i consider (at the time) that it deserves it.

I agree about going on tangents, but they are not as unrelated as you might think at first sight, its just that i failed to explain the connection....the problems of internet communication, if you can even call it communication.
Also agree about purism, but it comes from the heart, thats how i feel about these games so i react that way.