Game does a poor job at explaining combat mechanics

[FraGmenToR]

Is it really so hard to just explain how stuff works. Am i supposed to be button mashing, timing, dodging, evading, focuussing, or what? I have no idea. I have just discovered that you can actually focus during combat after dying for about the 10th time. Does the game explain this? No! It explains how you can die. But gives you eff all else. Thats not fun. Its annoying and poorly designed.

[Killer Kitten]

The combat is really basic. It's about the same as Super Nintendo era, which btw had no explanations either in any game.

[the-kingslayer]

The voices include a combat tutorial. They told me when to dodge, when to focus, etc. Of course they also killed me once or twice, but that's psychosis for you...
The only thing you have to do is look up the key binding once.
The exclusion of a classic tutorial is pretty much a point of design here and I think it would have detracted from the atmosphere, if it had been in there.
Though I can understand, where you are coming from with the criticism, I think it was a deliberate choice in design that, at least in my opinion, improved upon the immersion instead of taking something away.

[FraGmenToR]

Originally posted by the-kingslayer:

The voices include a combat tutorial. They told me when to dodge, when to focus, etc. Of course they also killed me once or twice, but that's psychosis for you...
The only thing you have to do is look up the key binding once.
The exclusion of a classic tutorial is pretty much a point of design here and I think it would have detracted from the atmosphere, if it had been in there.
Though I can understand, where you are coming from with the criticism, I think it was a deliberate choice in design that, at least in my opinion, improved upon the immersion instead of taking something away.

If this were true, then why have the written explanation about the dark creep killing you when it reaches Senuas head? Thats all i wanted, something simple like that.

I do get how the premise of the game appeals to people. And ill be honest, i played the first 10-15 minutes and was excited. But that completely evaporated once i discovered how bad and poorly designed the combat was. And when i actually left the game to figure out what the hell i was doing wrong, and discovered that the whole game is littered with these combats, and that you cant upgrade your character, or mitigate the wonky behaviour, damage, or get "better" at fighting, my interest waned. And i couldnt really be bothered with it. Which is a shame, as i liked the premise and first 10-15 mins.

IMO a game that gets this kind of tutorial without actually being a tutorial thing is something like Alien resurrection or Prey. New concepts are introduced slowly, and subsequent passages of game time are devoted to you learning a new skill(s). And at the same time you experience a graduual deterioation in the environment you are working in.

I just dont think it is well designed, thaats all. And much of its praise is undeserved IMO, and exists mainly for the original concept, which is not all that original if you aske me, its just done in a more direct manner (planescape torment remains the best game ever imo at introducing a totally new kind of concept and implementing it very well indeed). The most fundamental aspect of a game (IMO - obviously), is that his has to try and be fun at all times. Thhe moment it becomes annoying, or grindy, or dull, then its kinda failing in its main premise.

[Cloudz]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

The combat is really basic. It's about the same as Super Nintendo era, which btw had no explanations either in any game.

Those were the days now everything needs to have a mini tutorial in it and hold your hands to the end.

[the-kingslayer]

I'm not really trying to argue here about what is true or not. I think it comes down to a sense of personal taste and how we perceive a certain element of design.
In my experience one and the same point of design in a game can be terrible for some and an awesome thing for others.
I just tried to offer a different perspective, since the missing of a tutorial in this case gives a different sense of immersion in making one fumble helplessly in a world one does not yet grasp or understand. But that is just my opinion on how to interpret that design choice.
I am not going to try and convince you of something you don't see my way, when it comes down to a point in taste.
I believe, you disliking the game for an aspect you see as a design flaw is as valid as me seeing that design aspect as a step in opening one up to better immerse oneself in the helplessness the protagonist feels.

[the-kingslayer]

Originally posted by Cloudz:

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

The combat is really basic. It's about the same as Super Nintendo era, which btw had no explanations either in any game.

Those were the days now everything needs to have a mini tutorial in it and hold your hands to the end.

Oh. I'm usually all for a short tutorial, explaining the basics of game mechanics and gameplay. Nothing wrong with that.
To me it only gets annoying, if the game keeps putting in the same reminders like "now push x to do y" in there hours after the tutorial has ended. Even on higher difficulty.

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Cloudz:

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

The combat is really basic. It's about the same as Super Nintendo era, which btw had no explanations either in any game.

Those were the days now everything needs to have a mini tutorial in it and hold your hands to the end.

Oh yeah. Gather round children. Let me me tell y'all about that time I played Ninja Gaiden for the first time. The year was 1989. There was no practice level in that game, let me tell ya. They stuck you right into that mess. Get stuck on a wall? Well that's too bad. You're stuck until you figure out how to get yourself unstuck. And those glowing lanterns? Well there ain't no one telling you those things have ♥♥♥♥ in them. And they'll put them above your head, so chance are you're not going to accidentally figure that out either.

[FraGmenToR]

I actually appreciate games that dont hold your hand. But i cant stomach badly designed ones. I like hard, but i like fair more. And just mashing buttons without knowing what it is youuu are supposed to be doing isnt fun. Thats not trial and error, its just frustrating and annoying.

[Cloudz]

Eh well I hope you eventually figure out the combat if not heres some online help https://www.gamepedia.com/blogs/1518-hellblade-senuas-sacrifice-combat-tips-and-boss

[thebaconson]

I didn't need a tutorial as such, but atleast maybe telling you what keys are what. It wasn't until I went to the key bindings in options I found half the stuff out.

[Dr.Evil]

i figured out the focus mechanic in the last 5 minutes of gameplay LOL

[Diego Libe]

I'm a bit of a psycho and set the game staright to the hardest difficult as aways...
Buddy, sorry but the combat mechanic is literally overly easy for this game.

You are mashing buttons due your own habit. There is like 4 or 5 combos you can do at this game, and there is no need to mash buttons. Just interchanging between light and heavy attacks you do the combos.

Shielded guys? Kick then and combo.
Boss? Wait until you get focus and dash towards him and do a long attack combo.
Counter? Just press the defense button when the enemy rises it's hand.

That's pretty much I been doing so far.

One game that "teaches" you to not mash and it is a hack and slash game, is one called Implosion Never Lose Hope (Switch and Android).

At the Android version you have a single attack button and 4 different attack combos.
You need to time between each press. This is a way to unlearn button mashing and learn timing for attacks.

[Wylie28]

Originally posted by FraGmenToR:

Originally posted by the-kingslayer:

The voices include a combat tutorial. They told me when to dodge, when to focus, etc. Of course they also killed me once or twice, but that's psychosis for you...
The only thing you have to do is look up the key binding once.
The exclusion of a classic tutorial is pretty much a point of design here and I think it would have detracted from the atmosphere, if it had been in there.
Though I can understand, where you are coming from with the criticism, I think it was a deliberate choice in design that, at least in my opinion, improved upon the immersion instead of taking something away.

If this were true, then why have the written explanation about the dark creep killing you when it reaches Senuas head? Thats all i wanted, something simple like that.

I do get how the premise of the game appeals to people. And ill be honest, i played the first 10-15 minutes and was excited. But that completely evaporated once i discovered how bad and poorly designed the combat was. And when i actually left the game to figure out what the hell i was doing wrong, and discovered that the whole game is littered with these combats, and that you cant upgrade your character, or mitigate the wonky behaviour, damage, or get "better" at fighting, my interest waned. And i couldnt really be bothered with it. Which is a shame, as i liked the premise and first 10-15 mins.

IMO a game that gets this kind of tutorial without actually being a tutorial thing is something like Alien resurrection or Prey. New concepts are introduced slowly, and subsequent passages of game time are devoted to you learning a new skill(s). And at the same time you experience a graduual deterioation in the environment you are working in.

I just dont think it is well designed, thaats all. And much of its praise is undeserved IMO, and exists mainly for the original concept, which is not all that original if you aske me, its just done in a more direct manner (planescape torment remains the best game ever imo at introducing a totally new kind of concept and implementing it very well indeed). The most fundamental aspect of a game (IMO - obviously), is that his has to try and be fun at all times. Thhe moment it becomes annoying, or grindy, or dull, then its kinda failing in its main premise.

The flaw with your argument is simple.

People enjoy different things.Many people find this fun. Not every game has to be fun to you. You are not special.

[Aschente]

I hate to be so blunt but this sounds like your problem not the game design's. I'm no game combat expert by any means, I don't go for stuff like Dark Souls and whatnot, but this was super easy to figure out via some basic trial and error (and yes as stated the voices give you lots of hints for combat and puzzles).

If I had a criticism it's that the combat can feel simplistic BUT for this game I find that fine since the combat is more a means to an end as the game is about the story and the character rahter than pure mechanics

[AngusMcNessie]

I think the "atmosphere/immersion" and "not hand holding” argument for not having a basic tutorial for the first fight is undermined by the fact I got annoyed and had to hit escape to look at the key bindings. That literally takes you out of the game.

I would have liked some explanation that there were combos even if the game doesn't explicitly tell you them.

Why not accept that this is a computer game, get all the basic tutorial stuff out of the way up front, just like they did with the credits, then move on and let us enjoy the atmosphere. Otherwise you end up just frustrating some gamers, annoyed that they don’t know the basic moves. I don’t see how a tutorial at the start would have detracted from the atmosphere any more than the credits did.

As for my historical perspective I seem to recall Street Fighter 2, for example, came with a manual that had the moves in it.