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You are the one not presenting arguments here. All you say is that it`s a estabalished rule when it isn`t.. The cause for the dystopia is that they capture Kurisu, she is key for their dystopia. Their experiments in the past don`t lead to their dystopia. Kurisu being alive and they capturing Okabe`s group because of suspicion is the condition for that. Until then it`s true that they only changed the worldline by altering the past, but that doesn`t mean it`s the only way, it was never said. The worldline knows what is going to happen, EXCEPT when it`s something that a person knows because of time travel, you may call it lazy, but that`s how it works. So by using knowlodge that the person isn`t suposed to know, that person can change the timeline in the present, because his action aren`t something fated in that worldline like it would normally be.
Suzuha didn`t say that he has to make enough alterations. Remember something called Divergence points? They are points in which any small alteration can change the worldline, it happened when Okabe sent the first d mail. He was undoing every d mail until then so he could get the IBN, not so he would make so many changes that he would change the attractor field. The only change the he needed to make was that last one. The condition for the existence of the Alpha Attractor field is SERN getting that message, which leads to their dystopia. Change that and the AF needs to change. As I said before, the worldline doesn`t really predict actions that happens due to knowlodge because of former worldlines, but it does predict "organic" actions, and that`s why usually you can`t change the wordline with present actions.
The condition for the existence of the Alpha is the dystopia. The worldline predicts what is going to happen in the future, the first d mail changes the attractor field because it knows that it will lead to the dystopia. Erase that message, cut SERN`s suspicion and the attractor field will change, since they can`t form it`s dystopia withou capturing Kurisu. That`s not something that would happen without knowing something due to timetravel, but i already stated that that`s a flaw in the "system", a way to cheat. What you don`t seem to get is that the Alpha AF ONLY EXISTS IF THERE IS THE DYSTOPIA IN THE FUTURE. Alpha doesn`t only points to it, it`s the condition of it`s existence. It can`t exist with any other kind of future. The future usually doesn`t affect the past, except that in this case the action the present leads to an event that is incompatible with Alpha Af, so the AF changes, and on Beta the past events are different, past is also reconstructed from the moment the divergence point was open. The wordline knows the future that is going to happen, and if it doesn`t suit it`s attractor field, it will change it. If the actions still lead to the dystopia, the AF won`t change, but if it does, it will. That`s not made up, it happens more than once in 0. Before that moment the future didn`t affect the past, it`s true, because there was no reason to until then since none of Okabe`s action had lead to a different future.
Btw, if you still won`t accept any kind of explanation, just ask this same question on The Steins;Gate reddit. My native language is not english as you probably noticed a long time ago, so I can`t really express my thoughts like I want, I start to loose focus as i can`t find the right words to say what I want. There people might be able to explain better.
Edit: Remember when Okabe was trying to save Mayuri and he couldn`t? That was because doing that would lead to a worldline change and the future wouldn`t be the one that was predicted, so convergence doesn`t let Okabe save her. Now, why convergence doesn`t just not let Okabe erase that message no matter what, THAT`S the problem.
Edit 2: I reread your question, and you say that there are still people after them and all this ♥♥♥♥. That may be a problem since the game assumes that by deleting that message SERN won`t try to raid the Lab. I can understand you complaiment at this point, but remember that Moeka had already stopped trying to get the IBN and they might stop spying on them after they delete the message. Not sure about this point though.
It doesn`t directly answer your question, but it explains how altering the present does have an affect on worlines. Everytime Okabe was time leaping and making different actions due to Reading Steiner, he was changing the worldline, but the alterations were so meaningless that it never triggered reading steiner. The action of erasing that first d mail is the only one that is big enough to cause a worldline change. Every other action had the same affect as the jellyman, they weren`t enough to cause a shift. Okabe was making micro changes to the worldline due to knowlodge adquired through time travel all the time. It`s never stated that the only way to affect worldlines is by altering the past.
Yes, and it involves directly altering the past. You know, the rule you say I'm not giving examples for. Hell, even you're giving examples now, and you still don't get it.
And that's the problem you can't explain. That change was made in the present. It breaks the established plot mechanics. All I want is an explanation how.
By your own post, no it does not.
I don't get it because the game doesn't back it up, but my point is that even if it did back it up, it's still wrong. Timelines are well established to not care what happens in the future as far as the past is concerned; the story CONSTANTLY negates future causes of past events but preserves the past events. No where is this "predicting" you talk about mentioned. Worldlines don't predict, they simply exist. Suzuha goes over this in detail.
EDIT: Quote from the page you linked: "Sending my consciousness back has let me change some future events with more precision than D-Mail, but other events are locked in by convergence." .... "The future is always determined."
See? Locked in. Determined. Not predicting. The future is locked in and determined. The dystopia is not special in this regard.
Nowhere does the game talk about "compatibility with the future" either. Again, I'm not interested in your fanfic.
I find reddit to be something of a cesspool. I just thought I asked here because I thought it would be an easy answer from a community who probably knows better than me. I am sorely disappointed.
That's not "prediction"; that's just fate. It's like how Okabe can't die because he already died in 15 years (remember how that tense is used?) Just like how no one can change how Okabe dies, no one can change the coming dystopia. It's a result, not a cause (and even if it were a cause, causality doesn't work like that here, as you yourself admitted).
I don't see it as a problem. The rule of paradoxes wouldn't allow him to delete it if it mattered, and even if he did, there should be no change at all because the email was already being acted upon. It's not like all these agents are going to suddenly forget why they're in the neighbourhood just because the email isn't in the database anymore. It' s already gotten far too much attention by SERN agents as an active issue. Hence why this is so odd. Deleting the email from the database should change literally nothing; it's too late by then.
Agreed with everything there. Doesn't refute any of my points.
Yeah, a MICRO effect on FUTURE timelines, diverging from the PRESENT moment. So everything I've told YOU. Thanks, I guess.
Yes it is, actually. The microchanges only change the wordline in a small level, and -- this is important -- only from that point on. Because it's ... you know ... the PRESENT. Every change made in the present only affects the present. That link doesn't refute that in the slightest, and if nothing else, just gives more examples.
Again, are we done? If you had anything of an answer to give, I'd have heard it by now, and you must know that you've been completely ineffective at helping me. I think we're finished here.
I already gave you many answers, none of which you seem to even give a second thought. At this point it`s just a battle of egos, and no one will ever admit being wrong here. I don`t like how we are starting to sound harsh at each other, and we will never be able to convince each other. I beg you to ask this question on Reddit, I`m pretty sure they can give you a better insight than me, since, as I said, I`m not even fluent on english. People there are much more into it than anyone here. So please, don`t just prevent yourself from asking there because you think that that is place is a cesspool. Also, i`m legitly curious, did you have former bad experiences with reddit to call it that way? I mean, it`s not the best place on the internet, but it`s certainly better than Steam`s forums for discussion. And again, please, consider my suggestion of posting this question on reddit. I wnat discuss this further, but the way it`s going i seems that if we were throwing insults at each other we would be doing the same progress. If you want to continue this discussion, i`d like to kind of restart it so we can see the points in which we disagree with, since i`m pretty sure we agree on most things, it`s just one or another thing we are having issues with. And don`t see this as a fight, but as a way to comprehend both points of view. Right know, this is, unfortunately looking like a fight, which i don`t think is healthy in any sort of way.
Edit: Realised that I formated this pretty badly, but you should be able to figure out what you said and what i said. Pardon me, I hardly ever use steam discussions.
So show the other way in-game. Otherwise you're still appealing to the magic pixie faries. Because, you know, you can't prove they DIDN'T use magic pixie faries, therefore it's an explanation by your logic, right?
Again, we know what D-mails do. They don't do this. So yes, it IS kinda the only way, unless the characters in the game say otherwise.
No, by altering what HAS happened, the worldline shifts. This is more pixie faries; show me anything in the game that demonstrates how a change in the present causes a shift in the timeline in the past, or how worldlines are tied to futures as a cause (ie: the dystopian future "causing" worldline alpha). Keeping in mind your own link disproves this.
I said the futures are tied to the worldlines as end-results. You keep asserting that they are causes, but you have no evidence.
The email changed the past, which changed the future. It caused a whole chain of events, including Moeka's deployment, Kurisu's capture, etc. THAT is what changed the worldline. The future is the result of the change, not the cause. That's basic common sense, both in the game and real life.
All of this is correct and no one disputes it.
THAT is completely false and does not follow logically from what you posted at all. Nowhere does it say that, you are making things up again. The wiki does not even hint at that. I think this is where your bad English is failing you ...
No you didn't. Everything you've quoted or linked agrees with me. Again, do you just want to play the "English is not my first language" card again and back out?
Not the same thing; that only affects a change because he's essentially altering a future time travel (in the same way he can plan for Luca to do a time leap, which also triggered Reading Steiner). It still requires a direct change to the past, in this case Suzuha actually time traveling. No time travel is necessary for SERN to do what they're doing, because they're actively doing it right now in the present. Nowhere is it implied that SERN go back in time to invent time travel. This is just worldline stuff. So no, that's not an example. This only makes sense if you're still assuming that the dystopia causes the worldline, which there is no evidence for and is still your fanfic.
Then show me where it's not made up. What chapter? Who says it? Because as we've already established, there's plenty in the game that contradicts that (convergence points, for example).
Still wrong. Nothing in the game ascribes any knowledge to a timeline. The dystopia is simply the endpoint, the convergence, the final result awaiting everything that happens on Alpha. Like how Mayuri's death is a result. Or anything else. Not a cause, a result.
"I have no clue" is a perfectly valid answer to my initial post. In English, we call it a "plot hole".
Show me where on that page it says that a change in the present can trigger Reading Steiner. I said I agreed with the page, not you, and you're still making stuff up (or misreading it).
Show me where this is established. Suzuha only refers to it as one point on the worldline. It is never refered to as a cause. Even when they delete the D-mail from the database, they're doing it to jump back to Beta, not end Alpha by preventing the dytopia (because they know they can't).
No, everything either autocorrects so everything happens anyway, even if the causes are different, or something happens to prevent a paradox (like Okabe magically dodging bullets). THAT is what happens. Again, THAT is what is established. The dystopia is an inevitable result, like Mayuri's death. You can't undo it, and it didn't cause the timeline anyway. There's no point discussing with you further until you let go of this silly notion, because your entire flimsy argument hangs off it and it's a lie.
You invented the answers out of your butt. Why do they deserve a second thought?
Well, they took some preventive measures, not all numbers are correct. And since this message didnt hold world line in alpha field, it was not enough to 'point at Okabe as a person with working time travel technology'.
Also what i forgot: D-mail exist only at the arrival point, but not at the sending side. So first D-mail was send from beta WL and technically it arrived at the same beta WL and lead to what i described earlier. But this immidiately contradicts with attraction field and fact that there is not a single WL in beta field where SERN rules the world. And because of that it switches from beta to alpha.
First D-mail was send from beta WL and arrived at alpha, and it doesn't exist at beta line anymore.
So again, when they were in alpha field, next to last thing they did was cancelling the Rounders attack on the lab for unknown amount of time (I want to add more to this, but that would be spolers). So at this moment SERN is not actively looking for Okabe. But at some point in future they will do this again. If Okabe deletes the D-mail before SERN start the hunt again, they wouldnt have any evidence at this point. And because of that they will not develop a time machine.
So, after hacking the database and deleting the D-mail SERN will fail to rule the world. And again, since SERN succeed in all alpha world lines, the active one switches from alpha to beta.
The reason the future becomes a dystopia is because SERN found out after that first e-mail Okabe sent to the past. In that worldline, future SERN even sent agents to the past, and we know this because the lab was directly connected to SERN, as we found out during the game.
Now, when they deleted the first message from SERN's database, SERN still had not acknowledged the existence of this message, so deleting it reverts everything to the beta worldline since they cannot act upon it anymore.
You may think they noticed it because the lab got raided by SERN, but once okabe negated the changes he made, the raids stopped and he never received the threat messages, which means deleting the message then is sure to change to the beta worldline.
Well I guess I'm also on that list then, since I like to joke about places I would like to bomb.
Also, I think yall need to stop arguing with the AI, they aren't sophisticated enough yet to challenge their own thought patterns.
In this case, removing the original D-mail from the database shifted Okabe's consciousness to the worldline where the D-mail could never appear in that database in the first place, which is equivalent to it never having been sent.
This is a good explanation.
I think the problem with this specific event is that, throughout the same so far, we've been lead to believe that physical actions taken have no effect, but d-mails have a lot of effect.
For example, Okabe taking Mayuri far away from the lab on the day of her death results in no change to the timeline, even though it is an action based on information from the future.
Contrast this with the cancellation d-mails, such as the one sent to Lukako's mom. That shifted the timeline by over 0.05%.
Now that we've been conditioned to believe physical actions don't change the timeline, and we see Okabe pressing enter, which is a physical action, it makes us scream out, "hey that's wrong!"
I'm still not very happy with this. Pressing enter happened AFTER the divergence, just as taking Mayuri and running happened AFTER the divergence. Why does one have more effect than the other?
The time leap machine changes the divergence only very slightly. Okabe can have a choice to act differently, but the result would always end up being the same as Mayuri dying, it's only the span of 2 days, any action he does during that time is completely irrelevant to the cause-effect of the whole attractor field, the world line is still authentic to the one he leaped from. Reading Steiner only triggers if the change is big enough to cause disparity between events and memories, but that can't happen when his consciousness travels to the past. (if we follow the Okabe who did the leap, he will notice the change, but that's meaningless to the narrative)
Ah that's a good point. A d-mail isn't limited to the 2-days+ window of a time leap. His actions after each time leap, such as taking Mayuri and running, did not fix the actual divergence event.
If we think of the divergence not as a single point in time, but a single event, such as Okabe's sending a D-mail to Daru about Kirisu's murder, we can say Okabe's pressing enter changed the divergence EVENT, even if it happened at a later TIME.
It make sense to me when I think about it this way.