Quick question about plot near the end (spoilers, obviously)

[BeastBox]

So I just finished this after a bit of a visual novel binge and I'm mostly padding text so there's no spoilers in the hover. :) But while the game seems pretty strong as far as internal consistency goes, I did have one question, and it's a bit hard to do searches for plot holes when there's just as much chatter online about the game as the anime, so I don't know if this is answered or not ...

At the end, why does deleting the original D-email from the Echelon database in the present cause a timeline shift? That should only happen if they do something in the past, so if they could keep the email from ever getting detected in the first place, then I get it. Deleting it directly, two weeks later, in the current day should only result in them not having that record anymore ... there's still people hunting and aware of them that have already been dispatched. It's not a D-mail, it's not a time leap ... it's just changing a database entry. That shouldn't do jack to timelines or divergence or literally anything.

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Got to Steins;Gate`s reddit and ask any question there, you won`t find very good discussion here.

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Sorin Markov の投稿を引用：

Ok, but how was the phone and the microwave already linked together.

Lynx_gnt の投稿を引用：

This is just my theory.
So, first d-mail was a special one. The fact that it comes from future was not enough, as this can be just an error. It contained very specific information about certain event, that happend later. It cannot be just a mistake or a joke. Thus this d-mail cannot be just canceled, It needed to be completely removed.

I doubt SERN has a system for filtering these types of messages, as people send messages prophesying events on a daily basis.

Okabe sent the message to Daru`s phone, which was linked to the phonewave. Sern has a system called Echelon, which captures messages related to time travel and puts people who sent them under suspition. NSA does something similar to catch terrorists.

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Sorin Markov の投稿を引用：

My question is how the first D-email gets sent in the first place; what makes it 'special'?

It determines whether Sern will have the time travel monopoly or not. It was sent during a divergence point, a very specific point in time on which any kind of d mail can change the main Attractor Field, when usually they can barely change the timeline. Without that d mail, Sern never gets to Okabe and his lab, they never capture Kurisu and force her to build a time machine. Therefore, no Sern dystopia, which is the event that defines the Alpha Attractor Field.

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Kawaiian Pizza の投稿を引用：

If he were to send a D-mail to the past saying to delete the message it would do the same thing as time leaping into the past to do it himself.

I could buy him sending a D-mail to not send the original mail (deleting it is pointless, because SERN intercepts them in transit ... I rather doubt it watches your inbox :p). I could only buy that if I also buy that the contents was important, otherwise you couldn't send a D-mail that DIDN'T trigger SERN's watchdog. If there's a line of dialogue in the game that I missed which explicitly says that the contents of the email are important, I'd like to know that. I'm fairly certain it's only stated that the date is what triggered it.

I`m pretty sure that is explicitly said that Echelon only detects messages related to time travel. Which means that they were probably spying on John Titor`s messages a lot, btw.

[BeastBox]

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

BeastBox の投稿を引用：

Literally the second D-mail they sent was lottery numbers. :)

In any case, whether you accept the contents are important or not, that's still not relevant to why an action in the present causes a timeline shift in the past. Even if events in the future based on that database influence the past, most of this game breaks the idea of that causality all the time (otherwise, Okabe wouldn't be able to maintain memories of Mayuri dying over and over that never actually happened) so that still doesn't work.

Also, if i`m not mistaken calsuality doesn`t really aply to Steins;Gate because the Worldline changes to correct itself everytime there is some kind of odd change.

That's literally my point. :) Like how they keep negating sending their own D-mails every time they send one (always in the inbox, never in the outbox). Doesn't stop the D-mail from showing up in the past. Same logic applies to Suzuha going back in time; you can't negate it happening in the past by changing the future because the result already occured in the past. In all of Stein's Gate logic, the only way to change the past is the change it directly. So this doesn't follow.

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BeastBox の投稿を引用：

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

Also, if i`m not mistaken calsuality doesn`t really aply to Steins;Gate because the Worldline changes to correct itself everytime there is some kind of odd change.

That's literally my point. :) Like how they keep negating sending their own D-mails every time they send one (always in the inbox, never in the outbox). Doesn't stop the D-mail from showing up in the past. Same logic applies to Suzuha going back in time; you can't negate it happening in the past by changing the future because the result already occured in the past. In all of Stein's Gate logic, the only way to change the past is the change it directly. So this doesn't follow.

I would say that d mails and physical time travel are different. One is just a message going through a black hole, the time machine works completely different. So, by changing the future in a way tha Suzuha doesn`t return and Kurisu dies, the worldline should change. And even if you don`t accept that, remember that the Alpha Attractor Field is defined by SERN`s dystopia, if you change something in the past with knowlodge from the future that won`t let The Committee of the 300 build it`s dystopia, the worldline MUST change to a worldline from the Beta Attractor field. The 3rd worldwar is incompatible with any worldline from the Alphja Attractor field, and the worldline knows what it`s going to happen in it`s future.

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BeastBox の投稿を引用：

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

Also, if i`m not mistaken calsuality doesn`t really aply to Steins;Gate because the Worldline changes to correct itself everytime there is some kind of odd change.

That's literally my point. :) Like how they keep negating sending their own D-mails every time they send one (always in the inbox, never in the outbox). Doesn't stop the D-mail from showing up in the past. Same logic applies to Suzuha going back in time; you can't negate it happening in the past by changing the future because the result already occured in the past. In all of Stein's Gate logic, the only way to change the past is the change it directly. So this doesn't follow.

Also, as i said, the worldline simply correct itself. In this case, it might correct itself by excluiding Suzuha`s time travel. It happened the same way in the true end, physical time travel works differently from d mails.

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BeastBox の投稿を引用：

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

Also, if i`m not mistaken calsuality doesn`t really aply to Steins;Gate because the Worldline changes to correct itself everytime there is some kind of odd change.

That's literally my point. :) Like how they keep negating sending their own D-mails every time they send one (always in the inbox, never in the outbox). Doesn't stop the D-mail from showing up in the past. Same logic applies to Suzuha going back in time; you can't negate it happening in the past by changing the future because the result already occured in the past. In all of Stein's Gate logic, the only way to change the past is the change it directly. So this doesn't follow.

And how do you think that d mails work? You are saying they change the past, but that`s from Okabe`s perspective. The d mails need to change something in what is their present in other to change what you consider to be the present. Also, the moment d mails arrive in an another timeline, the worldline changes, an action in their present. When Okabe and Suzuha went back in time, the worldline changed, despite that moment being more like a present action once they arrive in the new worldline. When Okabe time leaped, he was indeed changing the timeline, but the time leap itself already changed the timeline, so he doesn`t perceive any other kind of reading steiner.

Also, remember that the timeline "knows" what is going to happen. They changed something that should have happened in that timeline, which is SERN`s dystopia, they are pratically changing the past from Suzuha`s perspective. The wordline changes because the 3rd worldwar can`t happen in that worldline. If they, in their present, change something big enough to make the worldline enter another Attractor Field, the worldline must change. It happen all the time in S;G 0, for example. It`s just something that only happened once in the original, so it seems strange.

[BeastBox]

I think you've lost the point here, BOT Amadeus. The thread is about how an action in the present changes the past, and the argument that it changes the future, which negates what someone then does in the past (in this case, SERN not going back in time because the dystopia didn't happen). What I'm saying -- and which you agree with -- is that this game breaks that kind of causality all the time so the logic doesn't hold. A D-mail ends up in the past, negating anyone ever sending it, but it's still there. Suzuha can also go back in time from the dystopia to negate it ever happening, but still do it ... the game even goes over how time will not allow a paradox, so this is all consistent. Even if it breaks causality, it's fine. The only way to change the past is to change it directly, even if you negate the future that caused the change. The game is very consistent on that point.

Everything about the worldlines changing and Reading Steiner and attractor fields and everything else is beside the point. All of that is true. I don't dispute that. I just want to know how a change in the present alters the past, keeping in mind that changing the future doesn't alter the past either, and the only thing you've said on that point is "well, that's different". Okay, cool .... how, exactly? Because that's not exactly up to the quality of lore-building that the rest of the game is. :)

PS: I already tried searching around for an answer to this, including reddit. There's no clear explanation to this, other than some people say that Steins;Gate 0 explains it, but of course I haven't played that ...

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BeastBox の投稿を引用：

I think you've lost the point here, BOT Amadeus. The thread is about how an action in the present changes the past, and the argument that it changes the future, which negates what someone then does in the past (in this case, SERN not going back in time because the dystopia didn't happen). What I'm saying -- and which you agree with -- is that this game breaks that kind of causality all the time so the logic doesn't hold. A D-mail ends up in the past, negating anyone ever sending it, but it's still there. Suzuha can also go back in time from the dystopia to negate it ever happening, but still do it ... the game even goes over how time will not allow a paradox, so this is all consistent. Even if it breaks causality, it's fine. The only way to change the past is to change it directly, even if you negate the future that caused the change. The game is very consistent on that point.

Everything about the worldlines changing and Reading Steiner and attractor fields and everything else is beside the point. All of that is true. I don't dispute that. I just want to know how a change in the present alters the past, keeping in mind that changing the future doesn't alter the past either, and the only thing you've said on that point is "well, that's different". Okay, cool .... how, exactly? Because that's not exactly up to the quality of lore-building that the rest of the game is. :)

PS: I already tried searching around for an answer to this, including reddit. There's no clear explanation to this, other than some people say that Steins;Gate 0 explains it, but of course I haven't played that ...

It changes because when changing from an Attractor Field to another, the past also changes. With that message deleted, there can`t be a dystopia, so it`s incompatible with any worldline from the Alpha worldline. The worldline changes to the Beta Attractor Field, but Attractor fields are far more different than a simple wordline change. So when the world changes to beta, past events are also reconstructed. The d mails sent on the Alpha Attractor Field also don`t arrive on the Beta Attractor Field. The only thing that cheats over this is reading steiner.

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BeastBox の投稿を引用：

I think you've lost the point here, BOT Amadeus. The thread is about how an action in the present changes the past, and the argument that it changes the future, which negates what someone then does in the past (in this case, SERN not going back in time because the dystopia didn't happen). What I'm saying -- and which you agree with -- is that this game breaks that kind of causality all the time so the logic doesn't hold. A D-mail ends up in the past, negating anyone ever sending it, but it's still there. Suzuha can also go back in time from the dystopia to negate it ever happening, but still do it ... the game even goes over how time will not allow a paradox, so this is all consistent. Even if it breaks causality, it's fine. The only way to change the past is to change it directly, even if you negate the future that caused the change. The game is very consistent on that point.

Everything about the worldlines changing and Reading Steiner and attractor fields and everything else is beside the point. All of that is true. I don't dispute that. I just want to know how a change in the present alters the past, keeping in mind that changing the future doesn't alter the past either, and the only thing you've said on that point is "well, that's different". Okay, cool .... how, exactly? Because that's not exactly up to the quality of lore-building that the rest of the game is. :)

PS: I already tried searching around for an answer to this, including reddit. There's no clear explanation to this, other than some people say that Steins;Gate 0 explains it, but of course I haven't played that ...

The action in the present with knowlodge from the future changes the events in a way that the worldline has to change the Attractor field because the future tursn out to be incompatible with any alpha worldline, something that usually doesn`t happen, but that`s a divergence point. It`s true, the action in the future doesn`t negate the past, but changing Attractor fields is completely different from changing the wordline to another of the same Attractor Field. In the former, it`s like a completely different world, even the past is different. On the Beta wordline from the prologue, for example, Suzuha went back in time to 1970. When the world changes to the Alpha worldline, she only returned to 2010. What i think that you are confusing here is that you seem to assume that that Attractor field changes are the same as wordline changes on the same attractor field, but that`s not the case. Changing the Attractor field changes the past, prsent and future. If the Alpha Attractor field would let a future without the dystopia, then the wordline wouldn`t have changed and Suzuha`s time travel and all the d mails wouldn`t have ceased to exist. But, since it`s an Attractor field change, evrything changes in a way that usually wouldn`t have changed.

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;1693785035806444402 の投稿を引用：

I think you've lost the point here, BOT Amadeus. The thread is about how an action in the present changes the past, and the argument that it changes the future, which negates what someone then does in the past (in this case, SERN not going back in time because the dystopia didn't happen). What I'm saying -- and which you agree with -- is that this game breaks that kind of causality all the time so the logic doesn't hold. A D-mail ends up in the past, negating anyone ever sending it, but it's still there. Suzuha can also go back in time from the dystopia to negate it ever happening, but still do it ... the game even goes over how time will not allow a paradox, so this is all consistent. Even if it breaks causality, it's fine. The only way to change the past is to change it directly, even if you negate the future that caused the change. The game is very consistent on that point.

Everything about the worldlines changing and Reading Steiner and attractor fields and everything else is beside the point. All of that is true. I don't dispute that. I just want to know how a change in the present alters the past, keeping in mind that changing the future doesn't alter the past either, and the only thing you've said on that point is "well, that's different". Okay, cool .... how, exactly? Because that's not exactly up to the quality of lore-building that the rest of the game is. :)

PS: I already tried searching around for an answer to this, including reddit. There's no clear explanation to this, other than some people say that Steins;Gate 0 explains it, but of course I haven't played that ...

Basically, when changing the Attractor Field, every action, including time travel, is erased, which doesn`t happen most of the time because divergence points are rare. Is that clear enough?

Edit: Think of Attractor Field change as complete resets, a new game, while wordlines from the same attractor field don`t really reset and don`t erase everything time travel related that has happened.

[BeastBox]

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

It changes because when changing from an Attractor Field to another, the past also changes.

But this doesn't change the attractor field, for literally the same reasons (I mean, why would it? If it doesn't affect the worldline, it sure as hell doesn't change the attractor field). You've got this whole "chicken and egg" thing going here, and I'm a little tired of you spending 4 posts to say basically nothing. Changing the future doesn't change the past, the worldline, the attractor field, or literally anything. You said it yourself; everything corrects itself. And even if it didn't, the past with SERN researching time travel is already established, even if the future it may or may not have relied upon changes (again, we've established this, and the game correlates this countless times). So you're still stuck with the same logic problem; you're just changing the terms. Making a decision in the PRESENT has no effect on worldlines, attractor fields, the past, etc. It's just a thing you did in that worldline.

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BeastBox の投稿を引用：

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

It changes because when changing from an Attractor Field to another, the past also changes.

But this doesn't change the attractor field, for literally the same reasons (I mean, why would it? If it doesn't affect the worldline, it sure as hell doesn't change the attractor field). You've got this whole "chicken and egg" thing going here, and I'm a little tired of you spending 4 posts to say basically nothing. Changing the future doesn't change the past, the worldline, the attractor field, or literally anything. You said it yourself; everything corrects itself. And even if it didn't, the past with SERN researching time travel is already established, even if the future it may or may not have relied upon changes (again, we've established this, and the game correlates this countless times). So you're still stuck with the same logic problem; you're just changing the terms. Making a decision in the PRESENT has no effect on worldlines, attractor fields, the past, etc. It's just a thing you did in that worldline.

Wrong, i already said, they were on the Alpha Attractor field, and that attractor field only exists if the SERN dystopia happens in the future. Changing the future in a way that there is no dystopia, the worldline changes to the Beta Attractor field, in which Kurisu died, because in this Attractor Suzuha doesn`t return to the past the same way she does on the Alpha Attractor field. The CONDITION for the existence of the Alpha AF is SERN`S dystopia, if you change things in a way there is no dystopia, the worldline can`t stay on the Alpha AF. If on the beta worldline, Okabe, with his knowlodge from the Alpha attractor field, changes the present in a way that SERN gets the time travel monopoly, the attractor field will change to alpha again, Kurisu will die.

Alpha attractor field= Attractor field in which SERN estabilshes it`s dystopia, and that`s only possible by capturing Kurisu. Change the present in a way that SERN doesn`t get to Okabe`s group and the attractor field changes to beta, everything time travel related is reseted.

Beta attractor field= 3rd world war, SERN doesn`t get the time travel monopoly because Kurisu is dead.

So yeah, changing the present does have an effect on Attractor fields.


Edit: I didn`t mean that changes in the present don`t affect worldlines, it`s just that the worldline won`t change if the action isn`t relevant enough. By deleting that message he changes what is condition for that Attractor field to even exist in first place, so in this case an action in the present does change the worldline and the attractor field, which leads to a change in the past because of the reset that I metioned before.There are no more examples in the VN, but it`s something that happens in S;G 0 quite a lot. Depending on whom has access to time travel, the worldline changes. In some cases that`s not enough to prevent the 3rd world war, so the worldline just changes to another wordline from the Beta Attractor field and the past satys the same. When SERN gets the time travel monopoly again, there is an Attractor field change and the past is changed since the past on that timeline is different. The wordline seems to predict everything that is going to happen except when it envolves time travel, so it`s possible to change the wordline with actions in the present if it`s with knowlodge related to time travel.

[BeastBox]

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

Changing the future in a way that there is no dystopia, the worldline changes to the Beta Attractor field

Again, this is literally the opposite logic of everything that has happened in the game. When you do something in the present, either you just switch timelines in the moment within the same attractor field, or things autocorrect themselves (or both). That's well established in the Steins Gate lore. At no point in the game does anything in the future affect the past, and there's a ton of evidence that the past doesn't give two craps about the future. That worldline wasn't caused by the dystopia, that world line simply points to it. The cause was the email, and the research SERN had been doing for decades prior. None of that was undone.

Okabe changes attractor fields by making enough alterations to the worldlines that he eventually shifts over. This is something Suzuha also emphasizes when they discuss the meter thing that measures divergence. Again, all very established lore.

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

So yeah, changing the present does have an effect on Attractor fields.

Look, if you're not going to admit you're just making rules up, fine, but at least understand you haven't yet presented any arguments that would change anyone's mind. All of your posts are either assumptions, or blatantly contradicting the game.

BOT Amadeus の投稿を引用：

I didn`t mean that changes in the present don`t affect worldlines

Well you should, because it would be correct. :) An action in the present is simply an event on the worldline. It might cause a different event to happen, or the same event to happen differently, but it wouldn't cause a time leap or shift in worldlines and it sure as hell wouldn't change attractor fields. It would just be a thing you did, fated in that worldline. The only things that ever happen in the game which cause those phenomenon are actions which DIRECTLY change the past. And that's it. As a rule. Not one exception given. Everything else is your personal fan fiction.

Are we done here? I came looking for an answer which no one seems to have, so it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. You've had ample opportunity to give a coherent explanation and none seems forthcoming. No need for either of us to waste further time.