Necromancer Insanity Mechanic

[Faith over Riches]

I've played this game enough now to consider that I understand most game mechanics pretty well (100+ hours), but the insanity mechanic still evades me. Sometimes the value is high and my necromancer is insane, sometimes the value is low and my necromancer is insane. Does anyone have precise information on this mechanic, and in particular how to reduce chance of insanity?

When I play Necromancer I use the strat where you only Raise Dead with you apprentice, and subordinate him to your Necromancer to minimise the effects of insanity, but even so sometimes you will release your apprentice to use an ability and then be unable to reselect him due to insanity. Any help would be appreciated.

[Jakalor]

The Insanity mechanic is what most would call a scrappy mechanic in CoE.
Form what I know, the Insanity is a percentage chance to be insane that turn. Insanity can be reduced by a trait that Grand Necromancers, Death Knights, Liches, Twiceborn (the thing you become after the Ritual that is) and Demi-Liches have. Liches and Demi-Liches have 5 in that trait, while everyone else has 1.

Vampires reduce Insanity by eating people.

[KStolin]

after 1000+ hours spent with the game, I am convinced that necromancer's insanity mechanic should be removed... as it gives nothing to the gameplay and screws up necro AI.

Necromancy should have skill levels instead - that should affect the quanitity of undead risen by 1 attempt (lvl 2 necromancy could raise more undead per turn).

[Faith over Riches]

I like the idea of fighting back insanity as you are slowly surrounded by more and more shambling and rotting corpses... as 'fluff' it's a good idea. However, as a gameplay mechanic I just find it really frustrating. Hopefully the Devs either remove the mechanic, or change it so that with increasing levels of insanity the Necromancer gains increasing debuffs; to encourage characters to spend the Hands to get a Lich/Demilich/Vampire and not just spam summons as a Necromancer.

[Chameon]

In CoE3, becoming a Lich or upgrading to a Demi-lich made you immune to insanity, flat out, and removed all insanity you had gained over the course of your duties. Vampires, meanwhile, had to downgrade tiles where living people might be to wipe their insanity. I personally like the insanity mechanic quite a bit, as it is currently (as, in CoE3, I think Necromancers were the strongest race by leaps and bounds, with good endgame tech units, a large army early rush, and their only real weakness being ranged units, add in no chance to hit their own units with aoe spells outside of the global ones...)

Necromancer -does- need some balancing factor for their cheaper units, I feel the simplicity of walls with archers on them helps, but it also means that a deathball necro army can eventually just roll over a sufficiently limited force. I'm not entirely sure what the solution will be, but I'm hoping that there will be something to change Necromancers' up a little bit, as while I personally like where Necromancers are, apparently it's not all that popular for other people. Furthermore, the Insanity mechanic really doesn't quite feel like it's everywhere it should be. High Cultist doesn't gain any insanity for its' human casters summoning things, Demonologist can perform hundreds if not thousands of human sacrifices without even the slightest of regrets. (If everything is awesome and the demon army he just summoned doesn't decide he looks delicious) There's plenty of light examples for where people who reasonably could gain insanity just don't, so honestly, having the Necromancer be the odd man out for "Your magic is so vile it hurts your ability to comprehend reality" weirds me out.

Then again, I love Markgrafs conceptually (I want immortality. I'm personally not smart enough to manage it, but I rule a kingdom. You, over there, mage. You will make me immortal.), but I hate the fact they're burgmeisters too much to play them long term, so I'm probably the odd man out in alot of areas.

[Faith over Riches]

That's a good perspective. You can collect blood sacrifices and advance the return of Ba'al as High Priestess whilst remaining a fully sane, functioning member of society, or summon astral Void Horrors and still be in full mental health, but summon one batch of Skeletons and you might just refuse to leave your Castle ever again...

[Jakalor]

Originally posted by Quinn ML:

That's a good perspective. You can collect blood sacrifices and advance the return of Ba'al as High Priestess whilst remaining a fully sane, functioning member of society, or summon astral Void Horrors and still be in full mental health, but summon one batch of Skeletons and you might just refuse to leave your Castle ever again...

Just remember kids, don't go into the Void, nothing good ever comes from going into the Void. Ever.

[Faith over Riches]

So you're saying... aVoid it?


I'll leave now...

[Orpheus]

High Cultist should definitely gain insanity, at least from some rituals. Calling fishmen out of the sea might not be too disturbing, but calling Elder Beings out of the void probably is. Then again, I have a lot of issues with the way HC plays, in comparison to the source material it was so heavily based on. I keep meaning to mod it into something closer to existing Cthulhu Mythos literature, but I have the attention span of a mosquito on crack, so it hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure about the Priestess or Demonologist, both of them seem fairly rational and self-aware. Plus, adding insanity to the demonologist would make him too hard to play (the risks are difficult enough to balance as it is). High Priestess could do with a nerf, but insanity doesn't really fit. I'd consider maybe lowering her spell-casting by one level (so L1 priestess can still summon, but has no combat spells), therefore making her less of a wizard-type and more dependent on divine support. I like the insanity mechanic itself the way it is, though I'd like to see some way for living necromancers to lower their insanity score (maybe give the necro something like the Vamp's village-eating power, but with a relatively high cost in hands of glory). HC, if he gained insanity, might not be able to lose it but could perhaps embrace it, gaining power in some way while also becoming harder to control.

[wabbit]

I figured it was appropriate to necro this thread..

But seriously, question - My necromancer performed a major ritual and summoned a ghost which has the ability that reduces insanity each turn. However, from what I can tell, the ghost cannot command troops or cast rituals, ie.. cannot raise dead and become insane. The skill does not seem to affect the commander of the party the ghost is in. Am I missing something?

[Jakalor]

Originally posted by wabbit:

I figured it was appropriate to necro this thread..

But seriously, question - My necromancer performed a major ritual and summoned a ghost which has the ability that reduces insanity each turn. However, from what I can tell, the ghost cannot command troops or cast rituals, ie.. cannot raise dead and become insane. The skill does not seem to affect the commander of the party the ghost is in. Am I missing something?

Nope, they probably just copied the stats of a character that can command troops.

[Xelos]

In my civmod i'm relaxing the insanity mechanic giving all necromancers insanity reduction minimum 1. I think it has some value as necromancer's are very strong all around from early to late game with tons of options.

I really do not like the eat village mechanic to some degree. A somewhat broken way of beating an enemy that relies on gold to a great degree is flying a stealthed vampire around and eating everything possible.

[Orpheus]

Originally posted by wabbit:

I figured it was appropriate to necro this thread..

But seriously, question - My necromancer performed a major ritual and summoned a ghost which has the ability that reduces insanity each turn. However, from what I can tell, the ghost cannot command troops or cast rituals, ie.. cannot raise dead and become insane. The skill does not seem to affect the commander of the party the ghost is in. Am I missing something?

Because a necromancer apprentice who casts Twiceborn can potentially be 'reborn' as a ghost. It uses the same unit type, but becomes a commander. In this case, the apprentice loses his spells and rituals but will retain any insanity that he had accrued while living. For him to lose it, whatever he turns into has to have insanity reduction. Since, as you say, there's no other way for a ghost to become insane, it has no impact on game balance, so it was just added to the existing Ghost unit rather than creating another version just for the purposes of Twiceborn.

[niddhoger]

Originally posted by Orpheus:

Originally posted by wabbit:

I figured it was appropriate to necro this thread..

But seriously, question - My necromancer performed a major ritual and summoned a ghost which has the ability that reduces insanity each turn. However, from what I can tell, the ghost cannot command troops or cast rituals, ie.. cannot raise dead and become insane. The skill does not seem to affect the commander of the party the ghost is in. Am I missing something?

Because a necromancer apprentice who casts Twiceborn can potentially be 'reborn' as a ghost. It uses the same unit type, but becomes a commander. In this case, the apprentice loses his spells and rituals but will retain any insanity that he had accrued while living. For him to lose it, whatever he turns into has to have insanity reduction. Since, as you say, there's no other way for a ghost to become insane, it has no impact on game balance, so it was just added to the existing Ghost unit rather than creating another version just for the purposes of Twiceborn.

Actually that's not entirely true. A necro apprentice was a commander before twiceborn ressurection, and maintains all spells/rituals that they had before. The only thing they lose is the ability to become a vampire or lich, as they are already an undead wight. the only exception to this is if they gained the "feebleminded" wound while dying.

[Orpheus]

That only applies if they become a corpse mage. If they become a ghost, they lose all magical powers. Trust me, I've screwed myself by forgetting this enough times to be certain that it's correct. Necros who cast Twiceborn in a graveyard will return as some form of spirit instead of a wight, and in the process they effectively lose a level in terms of both combat spells and rituals. So a first-level necro apprentice will lose all his powers. He's still an ethereal commander, so you can make use of him by giving him all those dispossessed spirits that you didn't know what to do with, but he won't be casting any more magic (when I say "loses his rituals", that includes mastery, so there's no way to level him back up)

Moral of the story - ALWAYS cast Twiceborn in your citadel, NOT in a graveyard unless you specifically want an ethereal commander and the dice gods aren't giving you a Wraith.