Kirin Jindosh

[Agenta]

I just managed to beat the Clockwork Mansion level itself with full non-lethal no detects. And I wondered something at the end. I had slaughtered all the clockwork soldiers, but spared the guards and Kirin. As I exited I saw the broken bodies of the soldiers I had killed, destroyed and on the floor in pieces, and as I heard Kirin's plea for survival as his mind was turned into scrambled eggs, begging for help from me. I now wonder why I tried to save him from this new death, and why, after I learned I could not, wished I could kill him and put him out of his misery, but I did leave him there to suffer. I wonder now, as I exit the mansion, why do I feel like I just killed a legend, a great man. I feel... regret over the target for the first time in this franchise. I wonder, why is there not another way? But there is none, and we just deal with that. I realized after this mission just how ruthless Emily and Corvo are, even in Low Chaos. And I wonder, from the last game, what really is the Light at the End, and even is there one?

[Erebus]

He has no empathy whatsoever. Did you use the heart on him or read/listen to everything around the level? The guy is a huge monster.

[Agenta]

Originally posted by Erebus the Indolent:

He has no empathy whatsoever. Did you use the heart on him or read/listen to everything around the level? The guy is a huge monster.

I did hear the heart of him. No I did not read many notes. Yes, he was a monster, a true villian, but he was also one of the greatest minds of time. I stood in awe as I entered the Mansion. And when I left I wondered, what did I just destroy? A murderer and villain, or a genius and inventor? And was it possible to kill one, but not the other?

[Erebus]

Originally posted by SSAgenta1999:

Originally posted by Erebus the Indolent:

He has no empathy whatsoever. Did you use the heart on him or read/listen to everything around the level? The guy is a huge monster.

I did hear the heart of him. No I did not read many notes. Yes, he was a monster, a true villian, but he was also one of the greatest minds of time. I stood in awe as I entered the Mansion. And when I left I wondered, what did I just destroy? A murderer and villain, or a genius and inventor? And was it possible to kill one, but not the other?

Look at Sokolov, (mild spoiler)brilliant... but wracked with regret over the stuff he did over his life in pursuit of advancement and discovery.

[Agenta]

Originally posted by Erebus the Indolent:

Originally posted by SSAgenta1999:

I did hear the heart of him. No I did not read many notes. Yes, he was a monster, a true villian, but he was also one of the greatest minds of time. I stood in awe as I entered the Mansion. And when I left I wondered, what did I just destroy? A murderer and villain, or a genius and inventor? And was it possible to kill one, but not the other?

Look at Sokolov, (mild spoiler)brilliant... but wracked with regret over the stuff he did over his life in pursuit of advancement and discovery.

To me Sokolov is a man that gave into emotion, he realised the horror he has done and is trying to make up for it. Jindosh is a man of ambitious and science. He wishes to advance himself, and technology forward. He is like an early Sokolov, one who did not realise what he was doing.

[Erebus]

Think about it this way: Yes he could "change the world", but would a person like that change it for the better?

For what it's worth when I did that mission I was trying to stop the machine at a point... Arkane did a hell of a job.

[Agenta]

Yes, I expected another Solution after hearing Jindosh's cries for help. I was hoping someone asked the devs if this was considered. This mission is a masterpiece, both from a gameplay sense, and a story sense. The one thing I wonder, does Emily or Corvo ever stop to question what they have done? I have not seen the Journal entry after this mission yet, so I don't know if it happens there. This to me is the equivilent of the Lady Boyle method from the previous game, but much more well executed, and less awkward.

[Erebus]

Originally posted by SSAgenta1999:

Yes, I expected another Solution after hearing Jindosh's cries for help. I was hoping someone asked the devs if this was considered. This mission is a masterpiece, both from a gameplay sense, and a story sense. The one thing I wonder, does Emily or Corvo ever stop to question what they have done? I have not seen the Journal entry after this mission yet, so I don't know if it happens there. This to me is the equivilent of the Lady Boyle method from the previous game, but much more well executed, and less awkward.

Yeah agreed.

In thinking about it the outcome is kinda poetic. He misused his brilliance and put it before everything else... and he lost it.

[Agenta]

I find it's even more poetic then that. His own inventions would be his destruction. His house built with his own strength would be his prison and place of destruction. In his death, he loses the one thing he cares about... his mind. Overall one of the greatest levels I have ever played from this franchise, maybe even comparing to areas like Fort Frolic from Bioshock, which is probably my favorite level in gaming I have played.

[The Fabulous Slayer]

As someone who spent his life dealing with science, I do feel like what we did to Kirin is worse than death. Taking such a beautiful mind and reducing it to a plant's level is cruel. Yes he did a lot of bad stuff, but so did the Crown Killer, and we are able to "heal" her. Yeah, she had a disease, but maybe so does he? Mental disease is also a disease.

In the end Sir Isaac Newton was also a very cruel man, and we respect him.

[Agenta]

Originally posted by The Joker:

As someone who spent his life dealing with science, I do feel like what we did to Kirin is worse than death. Taking such a beautiful mind and reducing it to a plant's level is cruel. Yes he did a lot of bad stuff, but so did the Crown Killer, and we are able to "heal" her. Yeah, she had a disease, but maybe so does he? Mental disease is also a disease.

In the end Sir Isaac Newton was also a very cruel man, and we respect him.

Yes indeed. Though I do wonder, how would Arkane have done it if you were able to demand something of him instead of scrambling his mind. What could prevent him from building not just an unstopable army, but maybe something much greater. What else would Jindosh design if he can make soldiers that appear to be living beings?

[GM Pax]

Originally posted by SSAgenta1999:

Yes, he was a monster, a true villian, but he was also one of the greatest minds of time.

He was one of the greatest AND LEAST ETHICAL minds of his time. He was both a genius, and an outright sociopath.

Being super-intelligent does not excuse being evil.

Originally posted by The Joker:

In the end Sir Isaac Newton was also a very cruel man, and we respect him.

Sir Isaac Newton never snatched random peasantry off the streets to subject them to mind-erasing / brain-damaging electroshock treatments just to see what might happen.

Kirin Jindosh is on a whole 'nother level of cruel, even evil. He's a full-blown sociopath.

[The Fabulous Slayer]

Originally posted by GM Pax:

Originally posted by SSAgenta1999:

Yes, he was a monster, a true villian, but he was also one of the greatest minds of time.

He was one of the greatest AND LEAST ETHICAL minds of his time. He was both a genius, and an outright sociopath.

Being super-intelligent does not excuse being evil.

Originally posted by The Joker:

In the end Sir Isaac Newton was also a very cruel man, and we respect him.

Sir Isaac Newton never snatched random peasantry off the streets to subject them to mind-erasing / brain-damaging electroshock treatments just to see what might happen.

Kirin Jindosh is on a whole 'nother level of cruel, even evil. He's a full-blown sociopath.

FYI. Newton had a man hanged and publicly disemboweled for making fake coins. It was another time, but Newton was a pretty violent man who was in position to punish people. Most people excuse it by saying that he was religious, but this is not really a good excuse, covering up one's cruelty, by saying that he did it in the name of the god.

[js51472]

I was happy to electrocute him. I also liked making his machines turn against him and kill him.

[Vibby]

Originally posted by GM Pax:

Originally posted by SSAgenta1999:

Yes, he was a monster, a true villian, but he was also one of the greatest minds of time.

He was one of the greatest AND LEAST ETHICAL minds of his time. He was both a genius, and an outright sociopath.

Being super-intelligent does not excuse being evil.

Originally posted by The Joker:

In the end Sir Isaac Newton was also a very cruel man, and we respect him.

Sir Isaac Newton never snatched random peasantry off the streets to subject them to mind-erasing / brain-damaging electroshock treatments just to see what might happen.

Kirin Jindosh is on a whole 'nother level of cruel, even evil. He's a full-blown sociopath.

What is evil? Is it in the actions? The intent? The end result? Is it what you personally feel disgust towards, or is it what the collective find abhorent? This is a question people have been asking for as long as humanity has existed -- no one has found the answer.

[The Fabulous Slayer]

Originally posted by EverfreeSparkle:

Originally posted by GM Pax:

He was one of the greatest AND LEAST ETHICAL minds of his time. He was both a genius, and an outright sociopath.

Being super-intelligent does not excuse being evil.


Sir Isaac Newton never snatched random peasantry off the streets to subject them to mind-erasing / brain-damaging electroshock treatments just to see what might happen.

Kirin Jindosh is on a whole 'nother level of cruel, even evil. He's a full-blown sociopath.

What is evil? Is it in the actions? The intent? The end result? Is it what you personally feel disgust towards, or is it what the collective find abhorent? This is a question people have been asking for as long as humanity has existed -- no one has found the answer.

I have. Not pooping for several days is very ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ evil, considering how hard it is to poop after that.