Boss leveling

[Old_Albert]

I don't get it. Why even search for upgrades if they also streghten enemies? I took off my badges and boss became -7 lvls. What's the point of upgrading yourself if bosses levels accordingly? What is this oblivion ♥♥♥♥.

Nice game tho

[Aletheia]

To maintain a proper difficulty I guess. If you were OP as hell, the game won't have any fun.
I like it the way it is right now. I can benefit from my badges and still have a good amount of difficulty.

[GemaYue]

The level in this game don't changes the bosses a lot, unless it is some big difference(e.g. about 20+). So don't worry about getting too much item. Since the story process affect the bosses level much more than the items you collected does.

[waku waku]

That's one bad part about the game. Like, you can make the achievements a lot easier by only collecting specific items which you think will be necessary, but how much of an achievement it will be then? Or is that a part of the game itself?

That said depending on how many badges you took off, it might not be a bad tradeoff to wear them. I think DEF trade (the one which gives you 15% attack and +20% defence) actually can decrease boss level by wearing it, or at least not have as much of an impact as other badges which cost 8 PP...bah too lazy to test.

[Old_Albert]

Originally posted by GemaYue:

The level in this game don't changes the bosses a lot, unless it is some big difference(e.g. about 20+). So don't worry about getting too much item. Since the story process affect the bosses level much more than the items you collected does

So you saying that items give you more then it gives to the bosses? Well, it's ok, i guess, it's just seems counterintuitive to me when Boss kills me - i go to find some upgrades and comeback to the boss only to see his level go up also.

Originally posted by Alethetchong:

To maintain a proper difficulty I guess. If you were OP as hell, the game won't have any fun.

Well, you can straighten them up after each boss killed, something like Prinny games did. Seeing them go down 7 level after i took off some extremely optional badges is strange to me.

[Techim]

I remember after Post Game on Normal Difficulty,
rematch vs Keke Bunny with 16 badges, LV 132.
Rematch vs Keke Bunny with 0 badges, LV 88.

That was an earlier version of the game though, not sure about the scaling now.

[GemaYue]

Originally posted by Techim:

I remember after Post Game on Normal Difficulty,
rematch vs Keke Bunny with 16 badges, LV 132.
Rematch vs Keke Bunny with 0 badges, LV 88.

That was an earlier version of the game though, not sure about the scaling now.

Recent patch changed how the badge affects the boss level, since we found it affect way too much in the end game.

[Old_Albert]

Nice to see devs answering the questions. Thanks. I still find leveling based on character strengh is strange, i would prefer leveling based only on story progression/number_of_bosses_beaten, but it's not that bad. Still a very good game, very much enjoing it!

[Techim]

Originally posted by Old_Albert:

Thanks. I still find leveling based on character strengh is strange, i would prefer leveling based only on story progression/number_of_bosses_beaten, but it's not that bad.

I actually really like this kind of increment, in a way you can prioritize trying to meet the hard bosses early so they have less HP, and leave the easier ones for later...

Last time I ever saw this in a 2D side-scrolling game was for Megaman X5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2AboJ-cNpE

[Freudia]

Originally posted by Old_Albert:

Nice to see devs answering the questions. Thanks. I still find leveling based on character strengh is strange, i would prefer leveling based only on story progression/number_of_bosses_beaten, but it's not that bad. Still a very good game, very much enjoing it! :lunchtime:

The thing about it progressing based on just story progression or number of bosses beaten is that you can go around and get like a ballpark 70% of the items in the game without fighting more than like four bosses. That would cause the rest of the game to be absolutely steamrolled. Honestly the current system works well and helps ensure that bosses at least put up a fight regardless of the amount of items you get.

[Old_Albert]

Originally posted by Freudia:

The thing about it progressing based on just story progression or number of bosses beaten is that you can go around and get like a ballpark 70% of the items in the game without fighting more than like four bosses. That would cause the rest of the game to be absolutely steamrolled. Honestly the current system works well and helps ensure that bosses at least put up a fight regardless of the amount of items you get.

Curse of game's openness i guess. I agree that it's better then steamroll most of the game, it would require much tighter balance of upgrade placement and level gatekeeping to do it my way. But leveling seems like a lazy answer. it's just that i'm a little sad that a metrodivania game basically saying to me that exploring and finding stuff doesn't matter because enemies become stronger too. What's the point?

But i get that you can't just change system like that right now, because game is balanced that way and it would ruin it. Still enjoing my playtrough on hard, but some bosses kick my ass so i came to wine a little on forum =)

[Freudia]

You still get stronger via item collection faster than enemies do, and the game definitely does reach critical mass where the only thing that can stop you is some of the later bosses. Honestly the spirit of Metroidvania is to explore and find stuff, so that's the point of doing it. This game plays the genre real well.

I'm not sure how leveling is a lazy answer, though; personally I think it's a clever way to ensure the game remains a challenge, and a much welcome sight after playing something like La-Mulana where you eventually reach critical mass and just stomp over most of the game's remaining content.

[Old_Albert]

Originally posted by Freudia:

I'm not sure how leveling is a lazy answer, though; personally I think it's a clever way to ensure the game remains a challenge, and a much welcome sight after playing something like La-Mulana where you eventually reach critical mass and just stomp over most of the game's remaining content.

La-mulana have optional hard mode, and La-mulana is more about the puzzles then arcade challange.

[Freudia]

Originally posted by Old_Albert:

La-mulana have optional hard mode, and La-mulana is more about the puzzles then arcade challange.

It's still a Metroidvania in spirit, which is the big reason I brought it up, especially as something you were familiar with. Regardless of what it's supposed to be more about, the fact is that you do eventually reach a point where enemies are minor roadbumps in traveling from point A to point B, and the same is honestly of most boss fights in that game. Don't get me wrong, La-Mulana is a fantastic game, but it does fall prey to that, and I'm fairly glad that Rabi-Ribi doesn't have that problem, as the bosses in Rabi-Ribi scale so that you can't really ever overcome a challenge by just picking up more stuff in a lot of cases.

I'm unsure how that equates to lazy design, still. I imagine getting everything to scale properly was no easy feat.

[Techim]

La Mulana mostly gets easier only if you take the time to go look for all the items.
Most enemies can curbstomp you from the beginning, especially made worse by the player knockback effect which can send you into a pit with more enemies or spikes.

[Old_Albert]

Originally posted by Freudia:

It's still a Metroidvania in spirit, which is the big reason I brought it up, especially as something you were familiar with. Regardless of what it's supposed to be more about, the fact is that you do eventually reach a point where enemies are minor roadbumps in traveling from point A to point B, and the same is honestly of most boss fights in that game. Don't get me wrong, La-Mulana is a fantastic game, but it does fall prey to that, and I'm fairly glad that Rabi-Ribi doesn't have that problem, as the bosses in Rabi-Ribi scale so that you can't really ever overcome a challenge by just picking up more stuff in a lot of cases.
I'm unsure how that equates to lazy design, still. I imagine getting everything to scale properly was no easy feat.

La-mulana and Grimmrock 2 is my alltime fav games so i'm a little defensive there-). I love them for the good balance of battles and puzzles, because most puzzle games don't have combat and progression and most battle-games don't have puzzles or have a very basic ones.

I see any leveling system as lazy, because while i get that without it we can sometimes get the situation where you overleveling everything, it's easier just put an automatic system that balances the whole game then balance each encounter. But, again, Rabi-Ribi was developed with this system in mind to begin with, so we can't just change it right now, it would be unbalanced because game is too open.
It's just that i like to conquer games like a mountain and don't like when mountain get's higher just because i took more gear. It had to be high to begin with. I probably formulated analogy badly, english is not my first language.