domination ruined

[C3]

domination is now the second best bz. why ruin a game mode that people liked. if it is too grindy, play bz why ruin a mode for players who liked it. change my mind.

[Romich]

Wasnt that gamemode broken by default?
It didnt reward players who attack (crate rewards barely mattered due to how their payback reward works), considering how easy it is to defend.
Instead it rewarded only defensive playstyle, so usually domi matches devolved into both teams sitting, mining their bases and territory, slowly picking each other off till doctrine arty unlocks, then whoever is more lucky with arty RNG (hitting enemy arty first) would win the game as they could just bomb enemy for hours and win (non DP arty doesnt have range to reach DP arty)
It was also a noob trap of a gamemode, as only 1 tactic worked there (if enemy team is somewhat competent - knows how to stall and defend and use arty). Good that it was fixed.

Previous domination's design was kinda backwards, what games even do something like that? Besides regular call to arms where the old version of this gamemode is from.

You can also mod something like it back in if you want.

[☘Hamster]

Originally posted by C3:

domination is now the second best bz. why ruin a game mode that people liked. if it is too grindy, play bz why ruin a mode for players who liked it. change my mind.

[Urk_da_WAAAGH!]

Originally posted by Romich:

Wasnt that gamemode broken by default?
It didnt reward players who attack (crate rewards barely mattered due to how their payback reward works), considering how easy it is to defend.
Instead it rewarded only defensive playstyle, so usually domi matches devolved into both teams sitting, mining their bases and territory, slowly picking each other off till doctrine arty unlocks, then whoever is more lucky with arty RNG (hitting enemy arty first) would win the game as they could just bomb enemy for hours and win (non DP arty doesnt have range to reach DP arty)
It was also a noob trap of a gamemode, as only 1 tactic worked there (if enemy team is somewhat competent - knows how to stall and defend and use arty). Good that it was fixed.

Previous domination's design was kinda backwards, what games even do something like that? Besides regular call to arms where the old version of this gamemode is from.

You can also mod something like it back in if you want.

Positional battles with artillery duels looked very neat and weirdly realistic.

[Saxhorn]

Wasnt that gamemode broken by default?

No it wasn't.

Players break it themselves by deciding "camping" and "arty" are the best way to "win".
They focus on the need to win rather than the idea of playing for fun and enjoyment.

Domination was (and sort of still is) a sandbox type mode, open to any way the players wanted to play it.

For those who wanted a longer game experience and wanted to use real tactics and plan carefully then Domination was (and sort of still is) more rewarding than killzones.

Domination and Battlezones seem to be equally popular when you look in the multiplayer session list. There's always a roughly equal number of both game modes when I look.

Battlezones is shorter and some people just don't have hours to spend on a single match. Some players find that length of game is just too much even if it's full of constant action. Other love the long games that drag out provided "things" are still happening.

I've had a regular group of about 20-30 players for several months. Some play Domination exclusively others only play Battlezones. Some prefer PvE some only want PvP.

It's simply personal preference on which game mode a player likes best.

They were just different at least until the latest patch.

I agree with the OP that on some settings Domination now plays very similar to Battlezones. Those pretty white cap zones can become very important depending on the VP setting the host created the game with.


With 1.029.0 the host can use some really strange settings but at least it's "flexible" even if it makes little sense at the extremes of the VP range.

The maximum time for a game is set to 120 minutes. Some people don't like this and think it's too low. Personal preferences differ. Personally I asked for the option to disable the timer but I doubt this will get changed anytime soon.

The minimum VP required to win can be set anywhere from 1 to 10,000.

Examples of what is now "Broken"

For a 2v2 game with the VP set to 1 a team wins by reaching only 4 VP. Yes that's right killing 4 enemy soldiers will win the whole game. It does provide a really short game.

And yes for a 1v1 you only need 2 VP to win for a setting of 1 VP. Even faster.

If the host sets 10000 VP and there are 6 players - the required VP is therefore 60,000 VP for a team to win.

Each cap zone is worth 3000 VP. That's more than an entire player army over the whole 120 minute match. Losses aren't a deciding factor unless the number of ammo box cap zones each side captures is equal. Then and only then will "kills" decide who "wins".

The maximum game time has been capped to 2 hours so in every case the game timer will finish before either team gets anywhere near 60,000 points.

For an 8 player game the VP would be 80,000 VP.

[Romich]

Originally posted by Saxhorn:

Players break it themselves by deciding "camping" and "arty" are the best way to "win".
They focus on the need to win rather than the idea of playing for fun and enjoyment.

Its pvp multiplayer, winning is the goal and can be fun in itself, when the gamemode is properly balanced (doesnt involve the one and only tactic)

Originally posted by Saxhorn:

Domination was (and sort of still is) a sandbox type mode, open to any way the players wanted to play it.

Before if 1 team decided to turtle and play passively till arty appears. It would lock other team into that predicament, as they wouldnt be able to counter that (defending the base is trivial for anyone competent), with anything but the same tactic - turtle and arty duel.

If you tried any fancy tactic against someone who was just turtling, they wouldnt attack you themselves (so that already removes a lot of sandboxy aspects), if you did not go arty doctrine, they would just automatically win as they could delete your units while you got no counter for that as they got all the time to sit and arty.
Tactical freedom was non existent in previous version of domination because it was poorly balanced in first place as only "one" tactic worked.

If to reach that tactical freedom you needed a mutual agreement to not use arty or something like that, it kinda shows that gamemode is broken if players need to do something like that.

Now this is fixed and the gamemode offers more tactical freedom, tanks are useful again, even stuff that isnt great in battlezones, like flame tanks or even goliath (weakest DP unit probably) can be useful in new domi. Previously tanks were pretty much useless in domi (as enemy could just stall and wait for rocket arty).
Now arty (at least cannon one) is not a requirement for victory either.

Originally posted by Saxhorn:

Examples of what is now "Broken"

For a 2v2 game with the VP set to 1 a team wins by reaching only 4 VP. Yes that's right killing 4 enemy soldiers will win the whole game. It does provide a really short game.

So the custom settings should be disabled? Because the player can break the game with those? As it cant be balanced around every non standart value, be it VP or unit cost balance being thrown out when manpower values are at high enough values.
At least people who join such lobbies can see it right away.

Unlike with previous domination where you dont know if its worth it to play with some other tactic and non arty doctrine, as it can easily be "countered" (victory points wise) by some opposing player just turtling and/or arty doctrine.

Originally posted by Saxhorn:

Each cap zone is worth 3000 VP. That's more than an entire player army over the whole 120 minute match. Losses aren't a deciding factor unless the number of ammo box cap zones each side captures is equal. Then and only then will "kills" decide who "wins".

Those boxes give 5% of VP, which works out if you play at standart settings that the game was balanced around for (and also accounts for broken custom settings due to being % based)
Same complaint can be given if host sets manpower to some huge number, disables timers and cooldowns or enables test mode and thus a lot of units are useless because best ones can be bought over and over.
Or puts max manpower to mere 1000.

The game was balanced for standart settings, i dont see how the gamemode itself is broken when in this case the host is breaking it by altering game's rules (max VP, max manpower) when standart values work fine as they are intended ones - game is balanced for those values.

Not the same case as with old domination, the gamemode where only 1 tactic worked, with standart or non standart settings.

[Romich]

Originally posted by MrCommie:

Positional battles with artillery duels looked very neat and weirdly realistic.

How those arty duels would play out: both teams just listen to sounds of enemy arty in fog of war, track its movement by sound it creates and try to shoot it till whoever scores a direct hit (add in 5 or so trucks around your arty to mask the sounds)

If the setting was modern, you could say that its somewhat realistic.

Tanks were also pretty much useless in old domination, as they would not pay back in victory points till rocket arty unlocks and deletes them (as long as enemy doesnt just feed you his own tanks) nor give tactical advnantage worth those VPs.
Tanks being so useless wasnt realistic either.

[Saxhorn]

Originally posted by Romich:

Originally posted by MrCommie:

Positional battles with artillery duels looked very neat and weirdly realistic.

How those arty duels would play out: both teams just listen to sounds of enemy arty in fog of war, track its movement by sound it creates and try to shoot it till whoever scores a direct hit (add in 5 or so trucks around your arty to mask the sounds)

If the setting was modern, you could say that its somewhat realistic.

Tanks were also pretty much useless in old domination, as they would not pay back in victory points till rocket arty unlocks and deletes them (as long as enemy doesnt just feed you his own tanks) nor give tactical advnantage worth those VPs.
Tanks being so useless wasnt realistic either.

I'm guessing you only played public games with random players you never met.
Therefore Domination was wasted on you.

[Romich]

Originally posted by Saxhorn:

Originally posted by Romich:

How those arty duels would play out: both teams just listen to sounds of enemy arty in fog of war, track its movement by sound it creates and try to shoot it till whoever scores a direct hit (add in 5 or so trucks around your arty to mask the sounds)

If the setting was modern, you could say that its somewhat realistic.

Tanks were also pretty much useless in old domination, as they would not pay back in victory points till rocket arty unlocks and deletes them (as long as enemy doesnt just feed you his own tanks) nor give tactical advnantage worth those VPs.
Tanks being so useless wasnt realistic either.

I'm guessing you only played public games with random players you never met.
Therefore Domination was wasted on you.

I also played with and against players/teams whom i know, who were just playing to win. Almost always it resulted in both teams using same tactic i described above as its the only one that worked and countered everything else in previous version of the gamemode

If this gamemode only "worked well" with premade teams and premade agreements/pacts to not use certain stuff and such. It indeed had problems and as you said was also unapproachable for randoms/random games.

[Saxhorn]

Battlezones has all the same problems you've listed above so it is no better. In some aspects it's better in other aspects it is worse.

The original post was about the Domination gamemode becoming more like the battlezones which it has.

The fight has regressed back to patches of dirt with white lines painted on the map.

[C3]

thanks for the support. this is making me take a break from the game. its only people who liked BZ who like the changes, but they probably only play bz anyway. so leave us domination which was a super unique game mode ( with a very unique expanding map not found in any other game ).

if i wanted to spam infantry and try to win in the first 15 minutes of the game.. ill go back to playing another ww2 rts which is exactly that game mode every time....

AND BOO HOO ABOUT ARTY. operation Barbarossa IRL was MORE than 50% arty brought up. IT IS MODERN warfare to arty! it is literally how it works...arty is not the unique unit.. it is THE UNIT. realistically .. and it was fun. name another game that simulates arty play at all.. and now we dont have it...

[Romich]

Originally posted by Saxhorn:

Battlezones has all the same problems you've listed above so it is no better. In some aspects it's better in other aspects it is worse.

Same problems like?

More units and doctrines are viable there. Players actions are rewarded more (as in you have to act to get rewarded), more tactical freedom compared to old domination (where pretty much one tactic countered all others)

[C3]

romich your like one of the best players ever... you perspective is so different than us normies....of course elite players want a certain play style for their "metas" the rest of us enjoyed a really unique game mode. now its gone.

and tbh that tactic you are complain about... is literally how most of all battles past and present worked out... arty is king. so to artificially make that not the king just to make domination close to bz but not as good with some random arbitrary time limit is super disappointing.

[Romich]

Originally posted by C3:

thanks for the support. this is making me take a break from the game. its only people who liked BZ who like the changes, but they probably only play bz anyway. so leave us domination which was a super unique game mode ( with a very unique expanding map not found in any other game ).

Maybe "only people who liked bz" are the ones who like better/fairly designed gamemodes?
Why the domi was poorly designed i described above, if you want to disprove that.

I wonder how many of people liked old domi, just for the sole reason of how easy it was to abuse old gamemode's shortcomings.

Originally posted by C3:

if i wanted to spam infantry and try to win in the first 15 minutes of the game.. ill go back to playing another ww2 rts which is exactly that game mode every time....

As for winning in "first 15 mins", with standart settings, you cant win that fast, unless you capture the base. Which is mostly unchanged from old domi) or if you just let the enemy capture most of the map, but then its your fault if you let them do it and players should be rewarded for pulling off hard stuff, like succesfully attacking.

As for "spamming infantry", considering that most units (tanks and vehicles) in old domination were useless due to aspects of that gamemode, with arty and inf being the only key unit types there, you "had to spam infantry" there too anyway.

Originally posted by C3:

AND BOO HOO ABOUT ARTY. operation Barbarossa IRL was MORE than 50% arty brought up.

Strange to bring up this kind of argument.
If we talk IRL, tanks werent useless while in old domi they were.
How many wars were won by just sitting on your ass? In old domi that was the best working tactic/strategy.

Originally posted by C3:

IT IS MODERN warfare to arty! it is literally how it works...arty is not the unique unit.. it is THE UNIT. realistically .

Game isnt set in modern times. Its set in ww2.
Tanks are also still useful in modern times.

Originally posted by C3:

name another game that simulates arty play at all.. and now we dont have it...

Arty is still there and is still useful, what was changed to "not have it"?
The biggest direct change to arty this patch was ammo cost balancing mostly for some rocket arty pieces.

[Romich]

Originally posted by C3:

romich your like one of the best players ever... you perspective is so different than us normies....of course elite players want a certain play style for their "metas" the rest of us enjoyed a really unique game mode. now its gone.

I was arguing here exactly on why only one "meta" or playstyle being viable is bad, which was the case with old version where the single aforementioned "meta" would reliably beat other tactics, which led to nothing but hours of RNG duels between arty.
I wonder how most players felt about this, when they would decide to try some other tactic and/or artyless doctrine only to find out that it would lead to automatic loss of the game vs competent opponent.

Originally posted by C3:

and tbh that tactic you are complain about... is literally how most of all battles past and present worked out... arty is king. so to artificially make that not the king just to make domination close to bz but not as good with some random arbitrary time limit is super disappointing.

The problem with that tactic (or rather old domi) was that it made vast number of units kinda useless as there was no reason to choose them over arty (even if it was other way around it would still be bad)

[C3]

thats just your opinion man, and i have mine.

romich with all respect...

i do not think you are helping this conversation anymore. i have noted you like the changes and see no issues and disagree with me., that is fine. please give space for someone else to answer.