Help me make armor make sense

[Jet]

*VIDEO PROVIDED BELOW*

I had a KV1-S trading blows with a Panzer 3. They were both front to front and close range. The KV was using 76mm APHE-BC the Panzer had the 5cm gun unknown ammo type. The KV sent 6 shots through various areas of the hull and turret of the Panzer none of which stopped it from shooting or disabled it in any way. The Panzer sent 2 shots at the hull of the KV, first one shattered, the second one ammo racking the KV. I then sent a captured armored car with a German 5cm which ammo racked the Panzer in 2 shots.

Im fully well aware I may have no idea how armor and guns work so I am truly asking for some guidance - HOWEVER it seems pretty likely to me that a Heavy Tank with a shell that is 26mm larger would have creamed through a medium tank's armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS1N-Pbc37E&ab_channel=JetlinerX

[Shii]

So while the caliber is higher, that long 50mm cannon on the Panzer III actually has a higher penetration value than the 76mm you're using, because it fires its shells at a much higher velocity. The Germans also get a 75mm cannon which, while if you just look at the caliber you would assume they're fairly similar, it's not even close.
In general the soviet 76mm guns are extremely mediocre and unfortunately the KV-1S has pretty bad turret armor, which is how I assume he managed to penetrate you at all. If you can help it, try to use the 57mm or 85mm guns as the Soviets.

[Graf Erik]

Well, size and weight is not everything.

That Panzer 3 is a M variant. The last one with the 50mm, a L/60. That gun has quite a punch. 97mm with apche, but on close range it can use apcr with an impressive 150mm of penetration.

The KV 1 might be a heavy tank, and it does indeed have an impressive armor (not enough to save him from that 50mm L/60 on close range though, the S variant has even a weaker armor then the older ones), but it has one downside: A truly bad gun.
The early versions are terrible, but even the S is bad. All KV1's have bad guns, its just how it is.
That L/43 has 82mm of penetration on close range. Thats half of what the Panzer 3 has.

Yeah, its enough to penetrate cause the Panzer 3 M has only 50mm of frontal armour. And I'd guess you caused quite some damage.

That german scout car on the other had has the same high penetration gun as the Panzer 3 M.

Edit: According to wiki, the thiner armor of the KV1S made it "more of a slow medium tank than a heavy tank"

[Ch53dVet]

The Pz III Ausf. M uses the KwK 39 L/60 Gun, the in game data lists the 5 cm round can penetrate armor of 102 mm at 10 m 92 mm at 50 m and 79 mm at 100 m, at those ranges the Pz III Ausf, M can defeat the armor of your KV-1S easily with a well aimed shot. The Puma has the same gun as the Pz III Ausf. M and therefore can easily defeat the Pz III as well.
All in all, I'd have to say the KV-1S and the Pz III Ausf. M showed up to the gunfight evenly matched, just one of them hit the Sweet Spot in the others armor, basically it was a crap shoot with evenly matched and unloaded dice, someone had to lose and someone had to win.

I had a Puma within 10 m, or less, of the rear end of a T-20 personnel carrier, the carrier is listed with a total all around armor value of 10 mm, the Pumas 5 cm round is listed as penetrating armor 102 mm at 10 m, it took 10 direct hits to the rear before it was disabled, not destroyed, but disabled, because the driver exited the vehicle before I could pump possibly anther 10 rounds into it before possibly being destroyed, go figure? I gave up trying to understand the logic of why all my dice rolls came up as snake eyes.

[underd0g]

Originally posted by Ch53dVet:

I had a Puma within 10 m, or less, of the rear end of a T-20 personnel carrier, the carrier is listed with a total all around armor value of 10 mm, the Pumas 5 cm round is listed as penetrating armor 102 mm at 10 m, it took 10 direct hits to the rear before it was disabled, not destroyed, but disabled, because the driver exited the vehicle before I could pump possibly anther 10 rounds into it before possibly being destroyed, go figure? I gave up trying to understand the logic of why all my dice rolls came up as snake eyes.

I am always fearing the arrival of any T-20 to the battlefield. They are indestructible.

[Ch53dVet]

Next in line has to be the dreaded Russian M72 (DP-27) a 3 seat Motorcycled sidecar mounted with a DP-27 Machine-gun, it has a massive Armor Value of 1.5 mm's. (possibly made from Adamantium or an ore called Unobtanium)

[torpex]

I often wonder if the shells that hit the "shot trap" have a greater effect? I also believe that not all armor is created equal. Harder is only good to a point, and actually needs to have some flex, not softness, in order help resist armor shells from penetration. I wonder if the game models this.
I do wish there was a way to manually target a distant target, instead of getting the "green dot" of approval for shooting.

[Urk_da_WAAAGH!]

Look, while what other people said is true, it is weird that the Pz III wasn't destroyed or at least disabled by any of the KV shots, it may be a bug or something glitching.

[Flan]

[quote=Ch53dVet;3825288583734405273

I had a Puma within 10 m, or less, of the rear end of a T-20 personnel carrier, the carrier is listed with a total all around armor value of 10 mm, the Pumas 5 cm round is listed as penetrating armor 102 mm at 10 m, it took 10 direct hits to the rear before it was disabled, not destroyed, but disabled, because the driver exited the vehicle before I could pump possibly anther 10 rounds into it before possibly being destroyed, go figure? I gave up trying to understand the logic of why all my dice rolls came up as snake eyes. [/quote]

The T-20 you have to hit the actual vehicle which is the lower part and not the "box".

[Graf Erik]

The problem with targets like the t20 is called 'overpenetration'. It was a real issue, especially with the 5cm kwk38/39, cause it has relativly small shell with a pretty high muzzle velocity.

What we normaly fire with this gun is a AP round with an explosive filler, the filler gets triggered by the impact and is supposed to explode in the inside of the vessel (not on the outside when it hits the armor). But when you his something with very low armor this might not be enough to trigger the filler at all. In this case the shell just goes in on one side and out on the other, leaving a 50mm hole.

And this happens in this game too. You can easily test it in the editor.
Place a Panzer 3, a t20 and lets say a t34 in one line. Shoot the t20. What happens? The t20 takes minor damage, the t34 gets destroid.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2973615688

[Ch53dVet]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

[quote=Ch53dVet;3825288583734405273

I had a Puma within 10 m, or less, of the rear end of a T-20 personnel carrier, the carrier is listed with a total all around armor value of 10 mm, the Pumas 5 cm round is listed as penetrating armor 102 mm at 10 m, it took 10 direct hits to the rear before it was disabled, not destroyed, but disabled, because the driver exited the vehicle before I could pump possibly anther 10 rounds into it before possibly being destroyed, go figure? I gave up trying to understand the logic of why all my dice rolls came up as snake eyes.

The T-20 you have to hit the actual vehicle which is the lower part and not the "box". [/quote]

I wasn't shooting the box, he was stationary when I spotted him, I turned around and parked my BFG on his six, I tried to give him the "Million Dollar" wound, at least, 10 times but, his sphincter was about as tight as a Ducks Ass in the rainy season. All I heard and saw was my hammer smacking his anvil with every round ricocheting off his steel "задница". Even King Leonidas of Sparta would have said, "Γαμώτο, αυτό είναι ένα στερεό κώλο".

[Flan]

Oh different T-20 sorry, there's another one that has a giant box on it that is inert as far as damage goes.

Yes the game does have a simple over penetration system where "damage" is somewhat linked to how much armor the shell had to go through compared to the penetration energy left in the shot (It loses power every time it hits or ricochets off something, so it won't just fly straight through 20 T-20s).
The armor on the T-20 should be enough to fuse most APHE in the game (they only need a slight, sharp deceleration to arm, most of the issue with thin armor is shell having enough velocity to travel beyond the target before it detonates) but the game doesn't simulate bursting charges directly, the APHE shells are solid shots that have an extra critical damage element when they penetrate enough armor relative to their penetration (at least that's my understanding).
You have to hit the engine or transmission directly to have much effect as most of the hull damage the shell could do is lost from the thin armor effect. This is realistic as most WW2 apcs are just empty space so a AP shell is less effective.
Whether your shots are richocheting or going through is indicated by the hit special effect, sound and if there is a hole after.

Or you can just shoot a HE shell and blow it apart like most light transports.

[Balthasar Gelt]

Originally posted by Ch53dVet:

Originally posted by Flannelette:

The T-20 you have to hit the actual vehicle which is the lower part and not the "box".

I wasn't shooting the box, he was stationary when I spotted him, I turned around and parked my BFG on his six, I tried to give him the "Million Dollar" wound, at least, 10 times but, his sphincter was about as tight as a Ducks Ass in the rainy season. All I heard and saw was my hammer smacking his anvil with every round ricocheting off his steel "задница". Even King Leonidas of Sparta would have said, "Γαμώτο, αυτό είναι ένα στερεό κώλο".

I'm a profound enjoyer of duck ass