Tiger tank has no counter in mid-war

[Meadows]

The only way to destroy this tank is by dropping an airstrike on it or burning it with fire. Prove me wrong

[xenon]

Romich の投稿を引用：

xenon の投稿を引用：

I agree with Romich regarding KT in one thing. The P2W 280mm nuke pretty much nullifies German armor advantage. Only problem is if you don't have the DLC, you're left with 203/Andryusha RNG.

IS2 does not counter KT at all, not even 2 mod.44 at the same time.

Tiger and Karl would be fine in Mid if Soviets had 280mm. I don't have the DLC so can't check if they do. Or they could add vehicles like Su-85/122/152, which also makes sense historically. 152 may be overkill from balance perspective.

The OP infantry mostly comes from the stupid COD mode, where panzershrecks can have infinite range, and spray and pray automatics can be rambo'd. Then the stupid movement is so good, aimbot snipers cannot lock on.

IS2 can kill KT with HE, HE also has an arc so you can kinda use it over some slopes and be unreachable

You said it yourself, "range is everything". KT has both range, armor, reload, accuracy over IS. Not to mention the hilariously broken smoke. Yeah, you can kill KT with IS2 HE... but chances are slim. As for "arc", it's bad because the velocity is the same as KwK36. Not to mention IS-2 has awful gun depression. It's a bad tank through and through, not worth the crazy price tag or let alone being a 50 DP unit.

Also I think KT can stun IS-2 with HE as well, although why would you do that when most AP hits will either oneshot or cripple. Rather just use SU/ISU or Nukes if you rely on bad IS-2 HE. IS-2 HE was ok before devs nerfed HE shells.

Anyways this convo is going a bit off tangent. I think OP is right, Tiger can be absolutely braindead in Mid. Same with KV Pak40, of which you can get TWO, which is why I think they're better than Tiger. Nuke would solve this if you're willing to fork out $$$ (Pay to Win), or they could add cheap MP units like SU-122, which aren't great but at least there's a chance. Infantry balance is a completely different issue.

[Romich]

General Max Hoffman の投稿を引用：

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2902252392 This is the current doctrines I think.

I think giving soviets 280mm in mid would be too op. would turn into artillery slaughter, 280mm can reload faster than Karl.

It sounded like just typical whining about "Tiger is too strong!!! but I see your point, they could be hard to deal with, though the soviets do have multiple options to counter the Tiger still in mid. 85mm AA, zis 30, zis-2, (can all destroy Tigers with skillful handling by the player and surprise/ambush) Su 100y can destroy a Tiger, ampulomet, flamethowers, satchels, airstrikes, several different artillery pieces, Katyusha, 122 mm and 152 mm can do the job too, at least track it and destroy the gun or stop the turret turning and neutralise it as a threat until you can finish it off. KV2 can wreck a tiger, yes you need to ambush, can't go head to head, that is still a viable counter. Artillery signaller could blast the area around it and damage it when tracked and immobilised. Anti tank infantry can damage it, certainly track it, even lay mines and try and lure it into a trap (a really long shot I know, but could work sometimes.)

But your complaints were definitely a bit exaggerated. It's 1 Tiger, for 1 doctrine in mid. Only players with that one doctrine can call in 1 Tiger in mid. All players with other doctrines have to do with much lighter tanks and it could imbalance the game to give the soviets too much, or other axis players wouldn't stand a chance.

Maybe Soviets could get access to an extra self propelled AT gun to help against the Tiger but they would have to be quite expensive and rare, like the Tiger, to stop soviets spamming them and just annihilating all lighter German tanks like Panzer 3s and 4s, which are all most German players have to rely on, except for a single heavy tank if you have the Tiger doctrine. Maybe giving the soviets a SU 85 for one doctrine, costing 55 or 60 dp (to stop two of them being used and wrecking all other German tanks) would be fair. Could certainly be used against the Tiger effectively.

SU 85 is not gonna do anything against a tiger vs a competent player, unless you get very lucky and tiger missess (it has 10m more range) and you hit on first shot to the turret or something like that. Pointless to ever buy it for 55-60 dp or even 50 dp, because pak40 for manpower has same range as it and 55 dp is the cost of su100y which actually has more range than a tiger.
Non doctrine german tanks might aswell not exist in current meta, too easy to counter and again germans have problems with infantry in midwar too (their t4 elite squad is unviable) to be able to bank for them without loosing too much ground.

[General Max Hoffman]

Well it is faster than a Su100y, so more mobile to have a chance to hit the Tiger on the side. Another option for competent soviet players to use

[Romich]

xenon の投稿を引用：

Romich の投稿を引用：

IS2 can kill KT with HE, HE also has an arc so you can kinda use it over some slopes and be unreachable

You said it yourself, "range is everything". KT has both range, armor, reload, accuracy over IS. Not to mention the hilariously broken smoke. Yeah, you can kill KT with IS2 HE... but chances are slim. As for "arc", it's bad because the velocity is the same as KwK36. Not to mention IS-2 has awful gun depression. It's a bad tank through and through, not worth the crazy price tag or let alone being a 50 DP unit.

Also I think KT can stun IS-2 with HE as well, although why would you do that when most AP hits will either oneshot or cripple. Rather just use SU/ISU or Nukes if you rely on bad IS-2 HE. IS-2 HE was ok before devs nerfed HE shells.

Anyways this convo is going a bit off tangent. I think OP is right, Tiger can be absolutely braindead in Mid. Same with KV Pak40, of which you can get TWO, which is why I think they're better than Tiger. Nuke would solve this if you're willing to fork out $$$ (Pay to Win), or they could add cheap MP units like SU-122, which aren't great but at least there's a chance. Infantry balance is a completely different issue.

KT has same range as is2
KT HE shells are much weaker than is2 shells so it will take much more of those to drain HP of is2
Even Is2 43 is better than anything german can buy for manpower, while KT has better rate of fire, accuracy and armor, you waste entire doctrine on it and the KT doesnt offer much, even on 1v1 maps where it can lock down huge chunk of the map, its doctrine has bad early game and mid game potential and still gets countered by rocket arty.

KV with pak40 gets hard countered by su100y, simply too high of a range difference and manpower zis2 has same range as it, so its easier to track and bomb

[Romich]

General Max Hoffman の投稿を引用：

Well it is faster than a Su100y, so more mobile to have a chance to hit the Tiger on the side. Another option for competent soviet players to use

Speed doesnt really matter in this case.
Competent tiger player will easily anticipate the su85 and just not show his flat side and be pre emptively agled to dangerous areas where enemy can appear from
Also they can just hear your su85 though fog of war and get ready for it

No competent player is going to waste over 35 DP on the su85 in midwar and never ever buy if its in tier 3 (25 min unlock), unless the game is already won. Because t34 57 already exists for 30 dp at tier 2 (at 15 mins) and has same range.
As manpower at guns, zis3 for sloped/hilly maps and zis2 for flat maps, already counter any german medium tank. While vs pak kv or tiger its of little use as its too risky

[General Max Hoffman]

Romich の投稿を引用：

General Max Hoffman の投稿を引用：

Well it is faster than a Su100y, so more mobile to have a chance to hit the Tiger on the side. Another option for competent soviet players to use

Speed doesnt really matter in this case.
Tiger player will easily anticipate the su85 or just not show his flat side and be agled to dangerous areas where enemy can appear from
Also they can just hear your su85 though for of war and get ready for it

Its still an extra option, and inexperienced Tiger players would probably be caught out more often. Also if the Tiger was tracked and the turret was damaged would allow it to be more quickly finished off from the side. Couldn't hurt to give soviet players an extra option for a speedy AT gun in some doctrine if they want to try it. Might just be fun for some people

[xenon]

Huh, you're right. IS-2 does has the same range, I remember KwK43 having +10 more. Not completely awful, but still awful.

Su-85 might work against Tiger if they're cheap and you can overwhelm. I'd prefer Su-122 simply because it can oneshot Tiger.

[General Max Hoffman]

xenon の投稿を引用：

Huh, you're right. IS-2 does has the same range, I remember KwK43 having +10 more. Not completely awful, but still awful.

Su-85 might work against Tiger if they're cheap and you can overwhelm. I'd prefer Su-122 simply because it can oneshot Tiger.

If they're cheap and you can overwhelm it would definitely overwhelm everything else, not just 1 Tiger for players playing 1 doctrine, it would be unfair against every other doctrine relying on manpower tanks. It would have to be limited and expensive

[Romich]

xenon の投稿を引用：

Huh, you're right. IS-2 does has the same range, I remember KwK43 having +10 more. Not completely awful, but still awful.

Su-85 might work against Tiger if they're cheap and you can overwhelm. I'd prefer Su-122 simply because it can oneshot Tiger.

Su122 has ~same HE as is2 and tiger 1 has same roof armor (generally weakest spot to HE) as kt, so
Its HEAT shell has same damage as is2's AP shell if i am reading it correctly

[xenon]

General Max Hoffman の投稿を引用：

xenon の投稿を引用：

Huh, you're right. IS-2 does has the same range, I remember KwK43 having +10 more. Not completely awful, but still awful.

Su-85 might work against Tiger if they're cheap and you can overwhelm. I'd prefer Su-122 simply because it can oneshot Tiger.

If they're cheap and you can overwhelm it would definitely overwhelm everything else, not just 1 Tiger for players playing 1 doctrine, it would be unfair against every other doctrine relying on manpower tanks. It would have to be limited and expensive

Both Su-85 and Su-122 are casemates with bad armor. Their only good sides are mobility and gun. Pak40 will still destroy them, and so will Tiger. Only in specific scenarios they will work, which is at least something instead of having nothing.

KV-1 1940 is an awful tank and yet it's super expensive, has 0 use and gets hard countered by Pak, Pz4 and etc. Yet it costs something crazy like 750mp, and you're concerned about casemates... Su-85 could be a DP unit, Su-122 should be MP. Glass canons, but far better than ISIS cars with satchels.

[xenon]

Romich の投稿を引用：

xenon の投稿を引用：

Huh, you're right. IS-2 does has the same range, I remember KwK43 having +10 more. Not completely awful, but still awful.

Su-85 might work against Tiger if they're cheap and you can overwhelm. I'd prefer Su-122 simply because it can oneshot Tiger.

Su122 has ~same HE as is2 and iirc tiger 1 has same roof armor (generally weakest spot to HE) as kt, so

HEAT shell has 120mm pen.

[Romich]

xenon の投稿を引用：

Romich の投稿を引用：

Su122 has ~same HE as is2 and iirc tiger 1 has same roof armor (generally weakest spot to HE) as kt, so

HEAT shell has 120mm pen.

Same "armor health damage" stat (HP basically) and even is2 43 with its worse shells compared to 44, has more penetration than 122 heat
Also iirc heat on that gun has only 180 range, who is gonna let you get so close to a unit that has 210 range

[xenon]

Romich の投稿を引用：

xenon の投稿を引用：

HEAT shell has 120mm pen.

Same damage as is2 ap shell if i am reading it correctly and even is2 43 has more penetration than it,
Also iirc heat on that gun has only 180 range, who is gonna let you get so close to a unit that has 210 range

Terrain, damaged Tiger, map, pure luck, ...

It's an option, not 100% viable but at least it's something.

[General Max Hoffman]

xenon の投稿を引用：

General Max Hoffman の投稿を引用：

If they're cheap and you can overwhelm it would definitely overwhelm everything else, not just 1 Tiger for players playing 1 doctrine, it would be unfair against every other doctrine relying on manpower tanks. It would have to be limited and expensive

Both Su-85 and Su-122 are casemates with bad armor. Their only good sides are mobility and gun. Pak40 will still destroy them, and so will Tiger. Only in specific scenarios they will work, which is at least something instead of having nothing.

KV-1 1940 is an awful tank and yet it's super expensive, has 0 use and gets hard countered by Pak, Pz4 and etc. Yet it costs something crazy like 750mp, and you're concerned about casemates... Su-85 could be a DP unit, Su-122 should be MP. Glass canons, but far better than ISIS cars with satchels.

Su-122 could be too op against more expensive German infantry in mid period though, maybe leave them in late period

[xenon]

Pak40 based units will destroy it more often than not. It's also a casemate from 1942, fitting Mid war perfectly. Su-85 is a slippery slope, fits DP more.