Tiger tank has no counter in mid-war

[Meadows]

The only way to destroy this tank is by dropping an airstrike on it or burning it with fire. Prove me wrong

[xenon]

1) I see plenty of wrong with that. A pen right in the middle and it only kills the engine, not even a single crew member? That's laughable.
2) it won't pen Panther hull on max range, vice versa will happen. It struggles even more against Tiger than IS2.
3) Nope, never seen anyone buy it, other than myself and had awful results.

Anyways range isn't everything, especially a small difference like 10m. Jagdtiger and KT have the most range, accuracy, pen and amazing armor, far better than IS or Su-100. Range only matters if the terrain/map allows you to abuse it, including farshooting.

But I said before that RNG Nukes decide more than tanks, and that overbuffed AT guns are far more effective. OP made a point about Tiger 1 in Mid, and yes it can get absolutely braindead. Been on both sides to see what he means.

[Romich]

Origineel geplaatst door xenon:

1) I see plenty of wrong with that. A pen right in the middle and it only kills the engine, not even a single crew member? That's laughable.
2) it won't pen Panther hull on max range, vice versa will happen. It struggles even more against Tiger than IS2.
3) Nope, never seen anyone buy it, other than myself and had awful results.

Anyways range isn't everything, especially a small difference like 10m. Jagdtiger and KT have the most range, accuracy, pen and amazing armor, far better than IS or Su-100. Range only matters if the terrain/map allows you to abuse it, including farshooting.

But I said before that RNG Nukes decide more than tanks, and that overbuffed AT guns are far more effective. OP made a point about Tiger 1 in Mid, and yes it can get absolutely braindead. Been on both sides to see what he means.

1)Crew member deaths are mostly RNG, they rarely matter anyway, its not like panthers or tigers can reliable take out whole crew in 1 penning shot.
As long as 1 tank crewman is alive, accuracy wont suffer (tho tank commander unit has higher skill so if he dies it will get reduced a bit) and enemy can just throw in some random infantry for other crew slots. Component damage matters more as those cant be fixed as fast as just putting new crew as long as the tank has 2 people in it, one for driving other one for loading and shooting (so one guy doesnt get stuck in reload phase, unable to drive backwards to keep range) it still poses a threat, while broken engine/track means you cant engage enemy properly, even with broken turret you cant effectively fight back like in as2, because of the netcode/desync, your shot will often go not where your gun is pointing at when turret is broken.
Also the efficiency % stat doesnt work and has not worked since it was disabled in as2 years ago so dont bother taking it into account

2)I have penned panthers at maxrange with su100, tigers too, bounces happen but su100 has upgraded hull so it can bounce them too.

3)Because buying mid/heavy tanks is not the most effective tactic, even more so considering how bad german tank options are in latewar and them being more limited in manpower due to worse infantry - having to invest into it more often, so not like you will get to face tanks often enough in a match to consider buying su100.
Though when i bought su100 in pub games i usually destroyed stuff with it as they wasted doctrine picks on stuff like german latewar allround or banking manpower for mid/heavy tanks and thus getting pushed by infantry and thus having less room/time to utilise their tanks and having to risk attacking with them
Though i will rarely buy it in competitive game vs equal opponent, just like any DP heavy tank, unless we are doing no arty or something like that or situation requires it.

10m difference isnt small, its huge, you get to shoot first, you dictate the range, you can keep reversing after each shot, if enemy chases you, they risk getting killed by other units or tracked and if you track/engine them, then you have won the fight as you got more range and they got no way to get into their gun's range. And if the enemy tries to retreat due to being unable to engage you without going all in, then you can just keep shooting at them from maxrange as long as you dont follow them too far but thats what range advantage is good for too.

Basically all tank fights happen at maxranges and end at maxranges or close to that, as shortening the distance is too risky (due to at inf or emplacements), requires rng (enemy not killing you before you can do it) and/or enemy not paying attention and just doesnt offer much in return.

Farshooting bypassess whole range system as there are several measures vs it in place, like the unrealistic "heat ammo loosing all penetration after certain range for the sake of game being playable (otherwise people would turn pzshreks into javelins via farshooting and never bother buying other stuff to counter mid and heavy tanks) so obviously "farshooting" not intended game design thing and just breaks balance and ingame rules (range limitaion) so what does it have to do with these units?

KT is in the second worst german doctrine in the latewar, it has only 1 good unit, the command car but that one will only work in the long run, KT itself is just going to get deleted by br5 or planes, doesnt really offer much and the doctrine has no arty at all.
Jagdtiger denies buying a 17cm arty, which is the best unit of that doctrine, as it lets you counter soviet arty due to higher range.

While su100 can be coupled with ml20 as its in more flexible doctrine.

As for midwar tiger, while it can get annoyng to deal with or to plan for, due to no proper manpower counters (besides using m30 mp arty at "close" ranges of 230-250). I have only lost a game "due to it" once, though there were other factors too, like me mixing up the war period and thinking i was picking a latewar doctrine and still getting used to goh's infantry balance.
Anyway, sovs get better early and midgame doctrine units and just better infantry options to push reliably in most games (1v1-3v3) and for longer games they get much better arty, with only 17cm having more range than most of sov arty, br2 has same range as 17cm tho.

[F.U.D.F.]

mfs writing essays in here

[Meadows]

Origineel geplaatst door /\/ ig /\/ og:

mfs writing essays in here

Its good that people can express themselves equally on something they're interested in.

[footsoljer]

yeah it does. use infantry with an AT grenade, molotov, or some rocket launcher.

[Meadows]

Origineel geplaatst door footsoljer:

yeah it does. use infantry with an AT grenade, molotov, or some rocket launcher.

This post is about mid-war. There are no rockets mid-war and good luck killing a tiger with an AT nade. Molotov is on the list of "fire"

[F.U.D.F.]

Origineel geplaatst door Meadows:

Origineel geplaatst door /\/ ig /\/ og:

mfs writing essays in here

Its good that people can express themselves equally on something they're interested in.

true that

[Wertox]

Origineel geplaatst door Romich:

Origineel geplaatst door xenon:

1) I see plenty of wrong with that. A pen right in the middle and it only kills the engine, not even a single crew member? That's laughable.
2) it won't pen Panther hull on max range, vice versa will happen. It struggles even more against Tiger than IS2.
3) Nope, never seen anyone buy it, other than myself and had awful results.

Anyways range isn't everything, especially a small difference like 10m. Jagdtiger and KT have the most range, accuracy, pen and amazing armor, far better than IS or Su-100. Range only matters if the terrain/map allows you to abuse it, including farshooting.

But I said before that RNG Nukes decide more than tanks, and that overbuffed AT guns are far more effective. OP made a point about Tiger 1 in Mid, and yes it can get absolutely braindead. Been on both sides to see what he means.

1)Crew member deaths are mostly RNG, they rarely matter anyway, its not like panthers or tigers can reliable take out whole crew in 1 penning shot.
As long as 1 tank crewman is alive, accuracy wont suffer (tho tank commander unit has higher skill so if he dies it will get reduced a bit) and enemy can just throw in some random infantry for other crew slots. Component damage matters more as those cant be fixed as fast as just putting new crew as long as the tank has 2 people in it, one for driving other one for loading and shooting (so one guy doesnt get stuck in reload phase, unable to drive backwards to keep range) it still poses a threat, while broken engine/track means you cant engage enemy properly, even with broken turret you cant effectively fight back like in as2, because of the netcode/desync, your shot will often go not where your gun is pointing at when turret is broken.
Also the efficiency % stat doesnt work and has not worked since it was disabled in as2 years ago so dont bother taking it into account

2)I have penned panthers at maxrange with su100, tigers too, bounces happen but su100 has upgraded hull so it can bounce them too.

3)Because buying mid/heavy tanks is not the most effective tactic, even more so considering how bad german tank options are in latewar and them being more limited in manpower due to worse infantry - having to invest into it more often, so not like you will get to face tanks often enough in a match to consider buying su100.
Though when i bought su100 in pub games i usually destroyed stuff with it as they wasted doctrine picks on stuff like german latewar allround or banking manpower for mid/heavy tanks and thus getting pushed by infantry and thus having less room/time to utilise their tanks and having to risk attacking with them
Though i will rarely buy it in competitive game vs equal opponent, just like any DP heavy tank, unless we are doing no arty or something like that or situation requires it.

10m difference isnt small, its huge, you get to shoot first, you dictate the range, you can keep reversing after each shot, if enemy chases you, they risk getting killed by other units or tracked and if you track/engine them, then you have won the fight as you got more range and they got no way to get into their gun's range. And if the enemy tries to retreat due to being unable to engage you without going all in, then you can just keep shooting at them from maxrange as long as you dont follow them too far but thats what range advantage is good for too.

Basically all tank fights happen at maxranges and end at maxranges or close to that, as shortening the distance is too risky (due to at inf or emplacements), requires rng (enemy not killing you before you can do it) and/or enemy not paying attention and just doesnt offer much in return.

Farshooting bypassess whole range system as there are several measures vs it in place, like the unrealistic "heat ammo loosing all penetration after certain range for the sake of game being playable (otherwise people would turn pzshreks into javelins via farshooting and never bother buying other stuff to counter mid and heavy tanks) so obviously "farshooting" not intended game design thing and just breaks balance and ingame rules (range limitaion) so what does it have to do with these units?

KT is in the second worst german doctrine in the latewar, it has only 1 good unit, the command car but that one will only work in the long run, KT itself is just going to get deleted by br5 or planes, doesnt really offer much and the doctrine has no arty at all.
Jagdtiger denies buying a 17cm arty, which is the best unit of that doctrine, as it lets you counter soviet arty due to higher range.

While su100 can be coupled with ml20 as its in more flexible doctrine.

As for midwar tiger, while it can get annoyng to deal with or to plan for, due to no proper manpower counters (besides using m30 mp arty at "close" ranges of 230-250). I have only lost a game "due to it" once, though there were other factors too, like me mixing up the war period and thinking i was picking a latewar doctrine and still getting used to goh's infantry balance.
Anyway, sovs get better early and midgame doctrine units and just better infantry options to push reliably in most games (1v1-3v3) and for longer games they get much better arty, with only 17cm having more range than most of sov arty, br2 has same range as 17cm tho.

KT worst ? KEKW

[Romich]

Origineel geplaatst door Weirdboy:

KT worst ? KEKW

Not KT itself, but its whole doctrine is bad.
Doctrine with KT is second worst one in latewar among ger doctrines yes.
The only truly good thing in that doctrine that is a gamechanger, is a command vehicle due to how resources work in the game.
ALL other units in that doctrine except KT and command vehicle, are worse than their soviet counterparts nor give you an edge over other sov doctrines.
KT itself is not gonna do much, because its a tank and those are not really useful if you are playing against someone good or if you are just playing domination vs someone who knows how to abuse that gamemode, non light tanks are absolutely useless in domination.

KT is even easier to counter now afer br5 got added, before you had to rely on other arty or planes if you didn want to risk HEing it with is2 or just winning with superior infantry.

Only the ger latewar allround is worse as a doctrine (though it can be decent in 1v1 battlezones due to radio operator)

[xenon]

I agree with Romich regarding KT in one thing. The P2W 280mm nuke pretty much nullifies German armor advantage. Only problem is if you don't have the DLC, you're left with 203/Andryusha RNG.

IS2 does not counter KT at all, not even 2 mod.44 at the same time.

Tiger and Karl would be fine in Mid if Soviets had 280mm. I don't have the DLC so can't check if they do. Or they could add vehicles like Su-85/122/152, which also makes sense historically. 152 may be overkill from balance perspective.

The OP infantry mostly comes from the stupid COD mode, where panzershrecks can have infinite range, and spray and pray automatics can be rambo'd. Then the stupid movement is so good, aimbot snipers cannot lock on.

[F.U.D.F.]

Origineel geplaatst door xenon:

I agree with Romich regarding KT in one thing. The P2W 280mm nuke pretty much nullifies German armor advantage. Only problem is if you don't have the DLC, you're left with 203/Andryusha RNG.

IS2 does not counter KT at all, not even 2 mod.44 at the same time.

Tiger and Karl would be fine in Mid if Soviets had 280mm. I don't have the DLC so can't check if they do. Or they could add vehicles like Su-85/122/152, which also makes sense historically.

The OP infantry mostly comes from the stupid COD mode, where panzershrecks can have infinite range, and spray and pray automatics can be rambo'd. Then the stupid movement is so good, aimbot snipers cannot lock on.

Mfs buy two games just to play COD...LOL

[xenon]

Haha yeah, they even have hitmarkers. All that's left now is killstreaks and the legendary hitsound!

[F.U.D.F.]

all they need now is the DOUBLE KILL, TRIPLE KILL voiceover hahahah

[Romich]

Origineel geplaatst door xenon:

I agree with Romich regarding KT in one thing. The P2W 280mm nuke pretty much nullifies German armor advantage. Only problem is if you don't have the DLC, you're left with 203/Andryusha RNG.

IS2 does not counter KT at all, not even 2 mod.44 at the same time.

Tiger and Karl would be fine in Mid if Soviets had 280mm. I don't have the DLC so can't check if they do. Or they could add vehicles like Su-85/122/152, which also makes sense historically. 152 may be overkill from balance perspective.

The OP infantry mostly comes from the stupid COD mode, where panzershrecks can have infinite range, and spray and pray automatics can be rambo'd. Then the stupid movement is so good, aimbot snipers cannot lock on.

IS2 can kill KT with HE, HE also has an arc so you can kinda use it over some slopes and be unreachable

Germany doesnt have armor advantage in latewar to begin with, due to factors i described earlier, before addition of new doctrines, their heavy armor would just get tracked by arty and bombed by plane, you have to have AA in front of the tank/target you are trying to protect from being bombed, to reliably take out the plane before it drops the bomb and your AA is not gonna survive whatever tracked your tank if its placed in front of it for good aa coverage.
As for german medium tanks, those are trash, pak 40 has better survivability.
Back when ger mediums (i dont count panther as one, besides it has a price of a heavy) had 10 less range than t34 85, they couldnt do anything to them without RNG or user mistake on part of t34 and even after the 85 got a range nerf to 200, pz4s and stugs are still at a big disadvantage as they are oneshottable by 85 via hull HP damage. Besides they have problems with manpower due to worse infantry squads

Karl in mid doesnt matter, because its not gonna efficiently counter infantry and buying tanks heavier than light ones isnt needed for soviets to win

No infantry advantage doesnt require first person direct control at all
I barely use first person on infantry due to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ hitreg/netcode i get and still wreck people with inf without relying on this feature.
You dont have to use first person to effectively use RGD33 aka the best nade
You dont need to use direct control at all for cheap/more efficient soviet squads to pay off. Even for ppshs as their power comes from rate of fire and mag, AI will headshot enemy infantry with them often and headshots have huge damage modifier.

Panzersheks loose all pen after maxrage as i said before, so farshooting via first person doesnt really matter in their case. They also have huge accuracy debuff with the spread of "half the size of your screen" so you cant use them to reliably kill infantry via farshooting either.

[General Max Hoffman]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2902252392 This is the current doctrines I think.

I think giving soviets 280mm in mid would be too op. would turn into artillery slaughter, 280mm can reload faster than Karl.

It sounded like just typical whining about "Tiger is too strong!!! but I see your point, they could be hard to deal with, though the soviets do have multiple options to counter the Tiger still in mid. 85mm AA, zis 30, zis-2, (can all destroy Tigers with skillful handling by the player and surprise/ambush) Su 100y can destroy a Tiger, ampulomet, flamethowers, satchels, airstrikes, several different artillery pieces, Katyusha, 122 mm and 152 mm can do the job too, at least track it and destroy the gun or stop the turret turning and neutralise it as a threat until you can finish it off. KV2 can wreck a tiger, yes you need to ambush, can't go head to head, that is still a viable counter. Artillery signaller could blast the area around it and damage it when tracked and immobilised. Anti tank infantry can damage it, certainly track it, even lay mines and try and lure it into a trap (a really long shot I know, but could work sometimes.)

But your complaints were definitely a bit exaggerated. It's 1 Tiger, for 1 doctrine in mid. Only players with that one doctrine can call in 1 Tiger in mid. All players with other doctrines have to do with much lighter tanks and it could imbalance the game to give the soviets too much, or other axis players wouldn't stand a chance.

Maybe Soviets could get access to an extra self propelled AT gun to help against the Tiger but they would have to be quite expensive and rare, like the Tiger, to stop soviets spamming them and just annihilating all lighter German tanks like Panzer 3s and 4s, which are all most German players have to rely on, except for a single heavy tank if you have the Tiger doctrine. Maybe giving the soviets a SU 85 for one doctrine, costing 55 or 60 dp (to stop two of them being used and wrecking all other German tanks) would be fair. Could certainly be used against the Tiger effectively.