15cm SiG 33 needs some love

[Theo]

Follow-up on my suggestion in the "Suggestions and Ideas" thread.
This 30 DP T3 midwar Irregular purchase for germany is hardly worth it at the moment. I can count the number of times i've seen it used in multiplayer over 200+ hours on one hand. And why would anyone buy it over three Bf-110s, a Flammpanzer III or two infantry squads? There is no reason. Anything it can do, other units do better without wasting precious DP.

Suggestions:
- Add the "I Gr 39 HL/A" shell, 24.6kg HEAT round to enable heavy tankbusting capabilities. Suggested range: 180.
- Increase the range from 170 to 220 for HE shells.
170 is just 10 higher than a mortar, it makes no sense for a field cannon that was historically used as an indirect fire support to reach a tiny bit farther than a mortar. 220 is just 50% of the range of the 15cm howitzer that defensive doctrine gets, which the SiG should aim to be a direct fire substitute for.

Compared to soviet midwar irregulars, which are great, the german irregulars suffer from inadequate fire support. Soviet irregulars get a 122mm A-19 howitzer (680 range HE, 220 range APHE), which is an excellent choice for 35 DP.

[Name]

Originally posted by Theo:

Follow-up on my suggestion in the "Suggestions and Ideas" thread.
This 30 DP T3 midwar Irregular purchase for germany is hardly worth it at the moment. I can count the number of times i've seen it used in multiplayer over 200+ hours on one hand. And why would anyone buy it over three Bf-110s, a Flammpanzer III or two infantry squads? There is no reason. Anything it can do, other units do better without wasting precious DP.

Suggestions:
- Add the "I Gr 39 HL/A" shell, 24.6kg HEAT round to enable heavy tankbusting capabilities. Suggested range: 180.
- Increase the range from 170 to 220 for HE shells.
170 is just 10 higher than a mortar, it makes no sense for a field cannon that was historically used as an indirect fire support to reach a tiny bit farther than a mortar. 220 is just 50% of the range of the 15cm howitzer that defensive doctrine gets, which the SiG should aim to be a direct fire substitute for.

Compared to soviet midwar irregulars, which are great, the german irregulars suffer from inadequate fire support. Soviet irregulars get a 122mm A-19 howitzer (680 range HE, 220 range APHE), which is an excellent choice for 35 DP.

I agree with this, the sIG for veterans doctrine mid war is practically useless. Though while great at disabling KV tanks, the range limitation of the gun puts it in harms way against enemy armor.

[Cryptic]

I don't really feel that doctrine points are really all that important for the most part because most of the stuff is not as good as what you can get in the main line of units. There are definitely a few exceptions but not many

[Name]

bump

[xenon]

I used the SIG a few times. It has pin point accuracy and will nuke any Soviet tank, or at very least, immobilize it. Pretty good if your ally has planes. Situational weapon.

I'm not sure if it needs buffs. The AT guns are already crazy overbuffed. I think your SIG buffs would basically mean Germans get a Pak43 in Midwar. What exactly will Soviets have as a counter? A-19 isn't that great, it's basically a poor man's Bison. Super rare unit. Why would you buy A-19, when you can get 122mm arty for MP, and use DP for Katyusha and planes?

The Soviet heavy tanks doctrine will be made even more irrelevant. Most players already agree that Soviet tanks are awful, and the Germans have the best AT guns, tanks and infantry. Even arty is debatable. And then your SIG will tilt the already crappy balance further into the crapper. Why do you think the Germans are missing units like the Hummel, Wespe and Pak43, while Devs give Soviets the most obscure units like SU-100Y, KV-2 and IS2 1943?

[Romich]

Doubt heat shell will improve it much, HE one is decent at that already.
Main issue is that its range sucks and it will get targeted by arty that comes out at same time for 40 dp
The midwar german irregular is probably the weakest doctrine in midwar, only really good thing they got, compared to others, are planes, but sovs dont really have anything that would require a plane in midwar, as tiger or trophey kv1 from other doctrines can deal with KVs

[xenon]

Originally posted by Theo:

Originally posted by xenon:

The Soviet heavy tanks doctrine will be made even more irrelevant. Most players already agree that Soviet tanks are awful, and the Germans have the best AT guns, tanks and infantry.

Funny, there's another discussion running hot over the last days where people are complaining about KVs, even though i agree that they are not that strong.

KVs are absolutely useless. The shortbarrel costs around 700mp, and gets owned by a Pak40 or even a crappy Stug3. The 2x KV-1s has to be one of the most ridiculous buy ins I have ever seen in a video game. Let's give a Tier 3 DP that costs an arm and a leg, that can get pelted by either a Pak40 or absolutely hardcountered by a Tiger, German KV (insult to injury) or a Flak37. Or even the SiG....

Saying the KV-2 and IS 1943 are obscure is just weird. They're iconic vehicles of the eastern front.

Iconic how? The only reason why they're popular are because of games like War Thunder. KV-2 was such a failure that after first months of 1941, you'd never see one in sight. IS-2 1943 was also a failure, that got quickly replaced by mod. 1944. Plus, even when they were fielded, their numbers were minuscule. Meanwhile, in this game you have more chance seeing KV-2 duking out with a Tiger, than 4+ T-34s vs the same Tiger. It's bizarre, just like having SU-100Y, which was only added because Soviet tanks are outright ass.

Also russians have a massive artillery advantage. If that isn't clear to you i do not know what you've been doing in your 310 or so hours. Russian arty has a much higher range in most cases, which grants them the upper hand. Example: The german 15cm howitzer has 440, while the russian A-19 has 680. Which is 154% of the 15cm howi.

That's cute. You do know that most of the maps are too small for the 680 to be of any use? Throwing little insults shows you have no leg to stand on. Germany has Morser, that is an equivalent of B4, and the little Sturmpanzer 1 can somehow outrange B4.

I can count on my one hand how many A-19s I've seen in MP. Do you know why? They suck.

The suggested buff to the SiG would do nothing to mess with arty ballance as it's still 1/2 of 15cm howi range and only direct fire.

If your concern is A-19, go nerf it then. No point in buffing SiG, which has pin point accuracy and one shots any Soviet tank. By the way, if you nerf A-19, then also nerf the 2x SFH18. You know, 2x150mm arty pieces, instead of 1x122mm, that cost 50 dp for no reason....

By the way, as far as SiG is concered, there's a DP unit that's a casemate that uses its gun. It already claps Soviet everything, so by buffing SiG you'll also buff this unit. Can you guess what that is?

Tank ballance too wouldn't be affected much. The SiG is currently fairly accurate on 170 (current max range)

Sure it won't. Derping any Soviet tank or AT gun beyond their fire range is clearly balanced. You've yet to explain to me what will counter your buffed SiG.

but that would certainly not be the case at 220 (suggested max range) and suggested HEAT rounds would have a max range of 180, which is 20 below normal heavy and medium tank combat ranges of 200. Therefore the suggested HEAT round would be an emergency or finishing blow weapon and tanks who are aware of the SiG can fight it before they get within deadly distance.

What's stopping your buffed SiG from tracking a tank at 220, and then wait for RNG to one shot it? Or better yet, you get super lucky and instantly one shot any tank.

Currently the SiG lacks a purpose to fulfill or niche to fit into. It's hardly useful for anything other than shooting infantry out of trenches and foxholes. All vehicles and support weapons except for mortars and flaks outrange it or match the range, it's simply forced to get way to close to defenses to fight them.

I've already told you what it is. It's a situational weapon, just like 90% of units in this game.

What are you paying 30 DP for? If it remains unchanged gameplaywise a DP reduction by atleast 1/2 is in order.

Not useless units like A-19.

[xenon]

You were the one starting to argue about how Soviets have "better arty; you have 300 hours!!!111" and bring up A-19 as an excuse. They don't. And even if they did by some miracle, don't you think it would be only fair as the Germans already have the best tanks, best AT and best infantry in both stages of war?

I've explained it to you in detail why buffing SiG will make the already atrocious balance even worse. Take a look at this, this is max range (170) against the most armoured vehicle from that period. One shot:

https://streamable.com/l9ln6g

Now go take a look at the max range of KV. Bonus, this is how far the Bison (guess what gun it is?) can shoot:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2795521743

This is not the only German unit armed with this either. Go take a look at Stu33 or whatever it's called. It's nigh invincible already, while derping any Soviet tank or emplacement.

[xenon]

Hahahah unreal.... If you want to get your derp gun to shoot the same range as SU-100Y, sure thing. I sometimes want to absolutely club with the Germans even in a 3v1 scenario, so gimme that discount Pak43 right now.

[xenon]

I don't know how you use it, and neither do I care. I've rolled my SiG towards enemy KVs without being hit once. If you'd pay a bit attention to what I've typed, you'd take my advise and realise that a 20 meter difference between KV and SiG is basically nothing. Especially when you can cheese with far shoot trick...

Yes, HE damage is lethal on any range. Especially when having pin point accuracy compared to your opposition. Not bad having a 30dp unit one shot the most armored tank in that period.

I told you before, it's a situational weapon, not a must buy. By the way, speaking of "one shot!!!!!11", SiG is a a stationary gun, and these things have ridiculous survivability and are hard to spot, "bro". Plus the tanks got their accuracy nerfed to "help AT guns".

But hey, as I said, discount Pak43 is all Midwar Germoney is missing now. Bring it on then!

[xenon]

Yeah ok "bro". You win, poor SIG needs a buff....

...Sourced by nothing but text and anecdotes.

Here's a hint: disable auto fire, move without truck, use smoke if needed. Thank me later.

As for "usage stats" that's just hilarious because 90% of units are barely used.

[xenon]

I'm not the one struggles to get a derp gun to work. "Empirical findings", good God...

I suppose you need to take your advise and play the game more, considering your "200+" of pure E-Sport hours. Good luck, SiG can be pretty good.

[xenon]

My review has nothing on the bile you've posted here, buddy. Keep calm, and SiG.

[Romich]

A19 can be decent in big team games as it has planes in same doctrine, but requires coordination, sov irregular is a must have for team games anyway due to planes, especially in midwar.
It also can be very good in 1v1s if your enemy didnt go 150 arty to counter it, it has decent accuracy up to ~250 on its HE, AP already outranges a tiger and HE even at 220 has a good arc on it, so you can shoot from safety and track enemy tanks to finish them off with planes.

Sig vs tanks though? Easier to go pak 40 and do same job for less resources spent, pak 40 comes out earlier and can deal with them faster and with less risk due to higher range and faster rate of fire.

[xenon]

Originally posted by Romich:

A19 can be decent in big team games as it has planes in same doctrine, but requires coordination, sov irregular is a must have for team games anyway due to planes, especially in midwar.
It also can be very good in 1v1s if your enemy didnt go 150 arty to counter it, it has decent accuracy up to ~250 on its HE, AP already outranges a tiger and HE even at 220 has a good arc on it, so you can shoot from safety and track enemy tanks to finish them off with planes.

Sig vs tanks though? Easier to go pak 40 and do same job for less resources spent, pak 40 comes out earlier and can deal with them faster and with less risk due to higher range and faster rate of fire.

A-19 is 35dp. By the time that arrives, you can have: 2xSfh18 (150mm but less range), costing 50dp. Bison, which somehow can outrange a B4. Even the 105mm can be a good counter, it all depends on who gets blessed by RNG. And yeah, I personally don't bother with anything but Defensive or Irregular as Soviets in midwar.

Yeah, said it before Pak40 nullifies most Soviet armour already. SIG can work, you obviously take some risk but if it hits the target, it's very rare that it survives. If it gets its range buffed, 190 is the furthest it should go. Having it shoot the same range as Su100y is just silly.

[Romich]

Originally posted by xenon:

Originally posted by Romich:

A19 can be decent in big team games as it has planes in same doctrine, but requires coordination, sov irregular is a must have for team games anyway due to planes, especially in midwar.
It also can be very good in 1v1s if your enemy didnt go 150 arty to counter it, it has decent accuracy up to ~250 on its HE, AP already outranges a tiger and HE even at 220 has a good arc on it, so you can shoot from safety and track enemy tanks to finish them off with planes.

Sig vs tanks though? Easier to go pak 40 and do same job for less resources spent, pak 40 comes out earlier and can deal with them faster and with less risk due to higher range and faster rate of fire.

A-19 is 35dp. By the time that arrives, you can have: 2xSfh18 (150mm but less range), costing 50dp. Bison, which somehow can outrange a B4. Even the 105mm can be a good counter, it all depends on who gets blessed by RNG. And yeah, I personally don't bother with anything but Defensive or Irregular as Soviets in midwar.

Yeah, said it before Pak40 nullifies most Soviet armour already. SIG can work, you obviously take some risk but if it hits the target, it's very rare that it survives. If it gets its range buffed, 190 is the furthest it should go. Having it shoot the same range as Su100y is just silly.

Bizon cant outrange b4, it has only 170 range.
Unless you mean via farshooting, but thats unintended, hence units having maxranges and them loosing all penetration past maxrange. But they havent fimplemented means to deal with HE farhsooting yet.

Ml20 outranges SFH by a lot and morser a bit, so on a lot of maps above 2v2, you will be able to utilise that range advantage. Sov 203 also outranges morser somewhat and 1 soviet player can go both 203 and ml20 in same match (can be viable in 4v4s), while german player can only buy either of those and sitll get outranged. So at least they get something reliable to play with, but yeah rng decides too much in this game with arty vs arty fights.

Same, i rarely pick anything other than defensive and irregular in proper team vs team matches, as those are most effective ones (except for midwar germ irregular). Other doctrines mostly shine in 1v1s.