Why is the panther such a useless overpriced piece of scrap metal junk? Balancing is all wrong.

[Valhalla]

There are serious balancing issues when it comes to the early and mid game and viable armour to use for the Germans at these stages of the "Late game mode era".

For a start by the time the Germans can field a Panzer 4 H the reds get access to t34 85 1944 model that completely dominates that section of the game panzer 4 h stands no chance whatsoever, resulting in usually being able to take only one hit and its a scrap heap.

then by the time the Germans can wield either the Panther or Tiger the reds then get access to the IS2 which completely dominates both German tanks so what is going on here??

On another note about these two German monsters that get no real justice in this game whatsoever by the way apart from maybe the tiger, the tiger tank is the cheaper tank of the two, yet the Tiger is a far superior tank in all aspects unlike the panther the Tiger can actually take a hit and fire back fairly decently but still if in a 1v1 duel with is2 almost always ends with the tiger being one shotted by is2 1943 model. But the panther is such a useless piece of crap every time i have bought one i have regretted it.

The 75mm gun for HE is totally inferior to the tiger which is obviously no surprise but that on top of its one tap death and useless roll on the battlefield when its availability is akin to that of the is2 makes it so useless it may as well be deleted from the line up and i never even mentioned that absolute exorbitant cash price for it at if i remember correctly 1350 maybe even more than this its a complete and utter joke the panther should be at the same cost as the T34 85 1944 or there abouts to keep things competitive because right now its laughable as a balance because the balance is non existent in this game.

Also one of the doctrines has a panther G model that as far as i can tell has absolutely no difference whatsoever compared to the A model it is in the special branch of points which honestly may as well be deleted from the game as well because again it comes out in the very late game when your choice of tank needs to be either Tiger 2 Jagdpanther or Elefant because these are the only tanks that can save the day for the Germans everything else is worthless crap.

also at that stage of the game there is so much work to do for the Germans even if they are lucky enough to make it that far because the game is so terribly one sided up until this point in the match.

Dont even get me started on how terrible the "Mid" era game mode is for the Germans me and my friends that play always stay away from this game mode as they wholeheartedly agree with me that is so broken in favour of the reds and its not even worth a look in.

Ofcourse all the commies and reds will come flying into the comment section screaming at the top of there cancer filled lungs that Axis is too op as they always do with no real tests or game experience or just sheer bias.

But i urge you to go into test mode and see for yourself or start up a match and just watch how you feel so helpless in the game until the tiger 2 hits the field or the subsequent tanks Jagdpanther and Elefant.

This forum i have created has just solely been talking about the disastrous balancing of Armour in the various stages of the game about both Mid and Late game "Gamemode Era's" and mentions nothing of the balancing issues of infantry, and cheap light tanks and support vehicles and the composition of small arms, because there are also major issues here too i will make a part two of this Balancing as there is far to much to write here for one day.

[voces junior]

The panther has more penetration and it is faster. And reload faster too.

[Pz.Grenadier Schulz]

For the Tiger: You need to make use of it's armor. Angle it and almost nothing goes through. Takes a bit of practice, tho. You are also more maneuverable than the IS-2, make use of it.

Panther G got slightly more armor at the front and sides compared to the other models, 10mm on both if I remember correctly. Also a different cupola.

And of course the Soviets get more tanks and easier than the Germans. Makes sense.

As a little sidenote. Whichever tank, no matter the models, shoots (and hits) first wins the engagement in 9 times out of 10. Should also be taken into consideration.

[A1_AlphaPrime]

I didn't get such an impression. If you're taking hits and just expect to tank it the whole day, you're playing the game wrong. It's all about positioning and being the first to land the shot. Russians historically had tools to crack open both Tigers and Panthers, so you should know how to avoid getting one-shot like you say.

Also, judging by your name and rhetoric, you seem to be a German tank and army fan, so you should maybe re-evaluate your bias and see what you can realistically expect from your tanks. History shows that even ambushing T-34 85's could delete King Tigers (and especially IS-2's that could go toe to toe with almost anything the Germans had).

[Culee]

Hi Too Valhalla.

About the Panzer IV J / T-34-85, yes the T-34 is the superior vehicle in most situations, and that's why it's priced at 700 vs 605 in price.

The Panther has better frontal effective armour (sloping), a gun with better penetration ballistics, better mobility and maneuvrability compared to the Tiger I.

Compared to the T-34/85, the panther has a much more competitive gun and armour, much better accuracy and so should not be priced the same. The Panther is much more powerful at long range engagements and will be competitive against the IS-2 or any enemy tank.

The IS-2 M1943 has in fact a powerful gun but suffers from a terrible rate of fire and horrible accuracy compared to the german counterparts. In situations where the rate of fire and accuracy are not relevant (such as a sneaking through a corner at short range, firing, and pulling back into cover until the weapon reloads again), the IS-2 will be more effective, but those situations are not the most frequent ones in the game.

In the open, long distance fights, or situations where the first shot missed, the Germans will be able to gain the upper hand on the fight against an IS-2, especially since the German vehicles have access to APCR and HEAT rounds which the IS doesn't, and therefore can make it have an edge on different situations where ordinary ammunition is not ideal.

Last but not least, contrary to your statement, I'd like to point out that the Panther G model has some upgrades over the A model including a much better mantlet to avoid getting the shots ricocheting on the top of the hull, and has a couple more ammo.

The statistics and the gameplay show that the game is not one-sided towards the reds.

If you have any further balance concerns, we will be around.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by Culee:

Hi Too Valhalla.

About the Panzer IV J / T-34-85, yes the T-34 is the superior vehicle in most situations, and that's why it's priced at 700 vs 605 in price.

The Panther has better frontal effective armour (sloping), a gun with better penetration ballistics, better mobility and maneuvrability compared to the Tiger I.

Compared to the T-34/85, the panther has a much more competitive gun and armour, much better accuracy and so should not be priced the same. The Panther is much more powerful at long range engagements and will be competitive against the IS-2 or any enemy tank.

The IS-2 M1943 has in fact a powerful gun but suffers from a terrible rate of fire and horrible accuracy compared to the german counterparts. In situations where the rate of fire and accuracy are not relevant (such as a sneaking through a corner at short range, firing, and pulling back into cover until the weapon reloads again), the IS-2 will be more effective, but those situations are not the most frequent ones in the game.

In the open, long distance fights, or situations where the first shot missed, the Germans will be able to gain the upper hand on the fight against an IS-2, especially since the German vehicles have access to APCR and HEAT rounds which the IS doesn't, and therefore can make it have an edge on different situations where ordinary ammunition is not ideal.

Last but not least, contrary to your statement, I'd like to point out that the Panther G model has some upgrades over the A model including a much better mantlet to avoid getting the shots ricocheting on the top of the hull, and has a couple more ammo.

The statistics and the gameplay show that the game is not one-sided towards the reds.

If you have any further balance concerns, we will be around.

Ok your first point panzer 4 J/h models v t34/85 having $100 difference is absolutely no justification of balance whatsoever when one tank completely dominates the other and they are both being bought at the same time so the game flow stays with the reds because the Germans cant make an effective assault for capture points at this point of the game. So again not balanced!!

Points about panthers armour, gun, and manoeuvrability: They all mean nothing when they get one shot from is2 that like i said before makes an appearance at the same time so still Germans cant make an effective push to capture point with panther support as the is2's are guarding the points and cant win frontal assault so again terrible balancing as the game flow stays in reds favour.

Point about t34 being outgunned in other words against panther how about the panzer 4s we were just talking about?? does it matter that they are in the same situation to you??There is only a $100 difference between the P4 and T34? do you see how stupid your point is lol why not make the panther $100 dollars more than the t34?

your point that the panther is competitive against is2 is complete rubbish if an is2 for example is spotted and you drive your panther to take a shot and it misses which happens about 50% of the time on first shots and eve follow ups the is2 will kill it because it cant escape fast enough rendering it useless and not only that the panther isnt a defensive tank yet it must be used in this roll because its completely useless on the offensive because like i said before they have is2 guarding points and not just then isu152's and the other isu model ands they can also 1 shot panther.

Your theories about is2s put into practice just dont work like that the is2 hits most of its shots and rarely misses and this nonsense about sneaking into corners and shooting is just a lot of rubbish the game doesn't play like that people spread infantry all over the map for effective recon most matches boil down to fights over the control points and not to mention there are only 2 maps in the 4v4 section that have a flat trajectory so trying to push a panther up a slopped area which you have to do on those other maps is mostly certain death for this tank and any other tank that cant take a hit properly from soviet heavies.

the last note about the differences in panthers are irrelevant because no one is going to take the panther when they need a jagdpanther to deal with soviet heavies properly it renders the tank wasted and useless in that special branch when you could simply move it to the normal branch at the price of what the panther A is and move the price of the panther A down to something more competitive with the t34 85 like having $100 difference just like the p4s are with t34.

there is a reason why MOWAS2 is the superior game it actually is properly balanced and a hell of lot more fun to play for it, all this game is right now is eye candy thats it this game is full riddled with bugs and the balance is all to ♥♥♥♥.

[-OrLoK- Слава Україн]

to be fair it must be tough to get things "right" as there are many different types of end user in GoH.

For me, "balance" is a word i abhor as I want a nod to realism in my SP game and although I know MoWAS and GOH dont really deal in correct distances/numbers or scenarios i do like to be pitted against an an enemy that not just in the same thing I am but in grey or green but an entirely asymetrical beast with its own strengths and weaknesses.

TBH I dont know how PvP plays and whether the "numbers" are the same in MP as they are in SP but on the whole im not finding any vehicles are far off what id expect in the game.

obvs i can only speak for SP, but it cant be easy finding that line which suits all play types.

I can understand being frustrated but it might be worth taking a breath and noting issues down in a slightly less combative way for the devs to peek at.

edit: sorry, devs didnt notice you had already joined.

[A1_AlphaPrime]

Originally posted by Too Valhalla:

Originally posted by Culee:

Hi Too Valhalla.

About the Panzer IV J / T-34-85, yes the T-34 is the superior vehicle in most situations, and that's why it's priced at 700 vs 605 in price.

The Panther has better frontal effective armour (sloping), a gun with better penetration ballistics, better mobility and maneuvrability compared to the Tiger I.

Compared to the T-34/85, the panther has a much more competitive gun and armour, much better accuracy and so should not be priced the same. The Panther is much more powerful at long range engagements and will be competitive against the IS-2 or any enemy tank.

The IS-2 M1943 has in fact a powerful gun but suffers from a terrible rate of fire and horrible accuracy compared to the german counterparts. In situations where the rate of fire and accuracy are not relevant (such as a sneaking through a corner at short range, firing, and pulling back into cover until the weapon reloads again), the IS-2 will be more effective, but those situations are not the most frequent ones in the game.

In the open, long distance fights, or situations where the first shot missed, the Germans will be able to gain the upper hand on the fight against an IS-2, especially since the German vehicles have access to APCR and HEAT rounds which the IS doesn't, and therefore can make it have an edge on different situations where ordinary ammunition is not ideal.

Last but not least, contrary to your statement, I'd like to point out that the Panther G model has some upgrades over the A model including a much better mantlet to avoid getting the shots ricocheting on the top of the hull, and has a couple more ammo.

The statistics and the gameplay show that the game is not one-sided towards the reds.

If you have any further balance concerns, we will be around.

Ok your first point panzer 4 J/h models v t34/85 having $100 difference is absolutely no justification of balance whatsoever when one tank completely dominates the other and they are both being bought at the same time so the game flow stays with the reds because the Germans cant make an effective assault for capture points at this point of the game. So again not balanced!!

Points about panthers armour, gun, and manoeuvrability: They all mean nothing when they get one shot from is2 that like i said before makes an appearance at the same time so still Germans cant make an effective push to capture point with panther support as the is2's are guarding the points and cant win frontal assault so again terrible balancing as the game flow stays in reds favour.

Point about t34 being outgunned in other words against panther how about the panzer 4s we were just talking about?? does it matter that they are in the same situation to you??There is only a $100 difference between the P4 and T34? do you see how stupid your point is lol why not make the panther $100 dollars more than the t34?

your point that the panther is competitive against is2 is complete rubbish if an is2 for example is spotted and you drive your panther to take a shot and it misses which happens about 50% of the time on first shots and eve follow ups the is2 will kill it because it cant escape fast enough rendering it useless and not only that the panther isnt a defensive tank yet it must be used in this roll because its completely useless on the offensive because like i said before they have is2 guarding points and not just then isu152's and the other isu model ands they can also 1 shot panther.

Your theories about is2s put into practice just dont work like that the is2 hits most of its shots and rarely misses and this nonsense about sneaking into corners and shooting is just a lot of rubbish the game doesn't play like that people spread infantry all over the map for effective recon most matches boil down to fights over the control points and not to mention there are only 2 maps in the 4v4 section that have a flat trajectory so trying to push a panther up a slopped area which you have to do on those other maps is mostly certain death for this tank and any other tank that cant take a hit properly from soviet heavies.

the last note about the differences in panthers are irrelevant because no one is going to take the panther when they need a jagdpanther to deal with soviet heavies properly it renders the tank wasted and useless in that special branch when you could simply move it to the normal branch at the price of what the panther A is and move the price of the panther A down to something more competitive with the t34 85 like having $100 difference just like the p4s are with t34.

there is a reason why MOWAS2 is the superior game it actually is properly balanced and a hell of lot more fun to play for it, all this game is right now is eye candy thats it this game is full riddled with bugs and the balance is all to ♥♥♥♥.

Then go play MoWAS, jesus. You salty because you expected the same game, but now your two hours refund time is over?

+ if all your tanks are getting one-shot all the time, it might be time to re-evaluate your playstyle buddy. You can't expect to drive up frontally to an IS-2 and win all the time, that's why there's flanking and angling. If anything, I experienced GE players camping their tanks on a hill and tanking everything that you could throw at them.

[HerrKormano]

About the balance:
You can watch netflix while playing CCCP without any stress because you win anyway if teammates doesent give up and they know even half of the strategy of this game.. Also germans artillery cant beat the russians at all.

What I have seen panthers can be destroyed with 45mm AT from front and it cant penetrate heavy tanks >.<. Panters are just can of beef for russians, expensive for germans. Also that T-34-85 cost almost 40% less than a panther..
AND yes it doesent matter what angle your tiger is, IS-2 will shoot it easily..

I dont know where devs test these but I would like to see the data on the win/lost ratio from germans and soviets.

[Herr Flick]

Originally posted by HerrKormano:

About the balance:
You can watch netflix while playing CCCP without any stress because you win anyway if teammates doesent give up and they know even half of the strategy of this game.. Also germans artillery cant beat the russians at all.

What I have seen panthers can be destroyed with 45mm AT from front and it cant penetrate heavy tanks >.<. Panters are just can of beef for russians, expensive for germans. Also that T-34-85 cost almost 40% less than a panther..
AND yes it doesent matter what angle your tiger is, IS-2 will shoot it easily..

I dont know where devs test these but I would like to see the data on the win/lost ratio from germans and soviets.

The winrate is highest for Germany, with a very small margin.

[T'ak Hyun-Shik]

panthers seem to be a waste of resources in any game or even real life

[Raubritter]

I mean that's accurate, the Panther kind of was a useless overpriced piece of scrap metal junk IRL
When PZ IV doesn't do it anymore just jump straight to Tiger

[Lord ♥♥♥-A-Lot]

The problem with these people like OP is that they believe that WW 2 or any military conflict is decided by tanks. But in real life armored formations had ton of support units from simple kradschutze recon to mobile/armored artillery and tank destroyer forces. T-34/85 might have a good gun, but PZ IV can still knock it out pretty decently. What are OP is complaining about is complete lack of tactical knowledge. Why would you burn your tanks? Send recon scout ahead and force them to make the first shot. went on conquest on huge map against heroic AI with german infantry division without any tanks. Still won. Why? Because even StuG can do the work it is supposed to do.

[TigerB44]

Written by people that have no idea how good the Panther was. Faster and easier to produce compared to the Panzer IV and much cheaper than the Tiger. A true early MBT.

[voces junior]

Originally posted by 私はウィーブではあり:

panthers seem to be a waste of resources in any game or even real life

IRL the panther was a little bit more expensive than panzer IV but the panther has much better design, gun and armor. Yhe panther is considered one of the best WW2 tanks.

[-OrLoK- Слава Україн]

no matter what is true or not, you'll find there's always a poster that disagrees!

Without the mad ranting brainwrongs of the OP, I was always under the impression that, like a lot of German equipment, that the Panther *was#* an excellent tank for its time but was over complex and prey to "other" issues in the field due to circumstance (logistics/sabotage/lack of resources etc etc), so in a game like GoH that doesnt simulate those influences I'd expect it to be a good performer.

This is if we just purely play the "numbers" game though.

I wonder if the devs have moddelled/factored in the real world issues into the stats of either the "model" itself or into the cost factor in the MP mode?

Id hate to be in their shoes and have to "balance" between gameplay and the real stats!