Iron Mage perk

[Meroldys]

So I'm using this perk cause 10% dmg reduction seems really good but...the tooltip say the effect stacks which should mean everytime I cast a spell I should get 10% dmg reduction but...I only get one no stacks nothing just refresh that one 10% reduction.

Do I misunderstand the tooltip or it is worded wrong?
Or the perk is not working as intended?

Not to mention it does not show in any stats when I use a skill only as a buff on left side..and it says "10% damage reduce" it seems like bad worded to me.

If anyone can help that would be appriciated

[datguy13]

It stacks with other Reduction effects. Some abilities would be over-written by a permanent effect. This one is indicating that it is not.

[Meroldys]

Hmm in that case it is kind of bad worded. Do you know if it is flat 10% or based on your defense stats (resistance etc)?

Just to know if it really as useful as I think it is.

Thanks for the help

[datguy13]

Sorry, not sure off the top of my head, but if the buff icon says explicitly "10% Damage reduction", then the most likely answer is that it applies a flat reduction to all damage.

[Meroldys]

Well looking at the perk now I think it is kinda confusing "+10% damage reduce for 2 seconds each time you cast a spell (the effect stacks)"

If you read that it kinda say that everytime I cast a spell it gives me 10% damage reduce(!? -duction?) for 2 seconds and this effect stacks...so uhhm yeah :D

That would be pretty overpowered tho so I tought there is something not right that's why I made this thread.

[datguy13]

Yeah, reading that exact quote, it sounds much more powerful, and does imply that it should be a self-stacking buff. I'd recommend posting up a Feedback report to Mantis asking for the tool tip to be clarified.

[Meroldys]

Gonna try that Mantis thing then. Thanks for the help hopefully it is a 10% flat damage reduction cause otherwise it's not really a good perk :D

[Feline Pawtism]

I went and pulled open the skill's file to take a look. (Something anyone can do in Notepad, in case people are worried.)

activationtype=passive
casttarget.casttarget=caster
positive=1

targetgroupcount=1
targetgroup[0].actiontarget=event_params
targetgroup[0].event=global_cooldown_spell_casted

targetfiltercount=1
targetfilter[0].filter=convert_to_caster
targetfilter[0].sourcegroupindex=0
targetfilter[0].clearafterperiodtick=1

action[0].actiontype=modifier__new
action[0].targetgroupindex=0
action[0].mod.prioritygroup=bonus_percent
action[0].mod.property=damage_reduction
action[0].mod.values=10.0,0
action[0].timedduration.values=2.0,0.0
action[0].oldaothandling=stack

Then I went and found another skill that DOES stack, the Fury aura, which stacks for 4 seconds, up to 3 times, when enemies are slain.

activationtype=on_off
casttarget.casttarget=caster
category=aura
learncost=2
actioncount=3

action[0].actiontype=modifier__new
action[0].targetgroupindex=0
action[0].mod.prioritygroup=bonus_fix
action[0].mod.property=fury_damage
action[0].mod.values=2.5,3.7,4.9,5.9,6.8,7.7,8.4,9.0,9.6,10.0,0.3
action[0].mod.tag=furydamage_
action[0].mod.tagformattype=percent

action[1].actiontype=modifier__new
action[1].targetgroupindex=0
action[1].mod.prioritygroup=base_fix
action[1].mod.property=fury_time
action[1].mod.boosts=furytime_m0(2.0)

action[2].actiontype=modifier__new
action[2].targetgroupindex=0
action[2].mod.prioritygroup=base_fix
action[2].mod.property=fury_max_victim_count
action[2].mod.boosts=furymaxvictimcount_m1(2)

This actually raises several questions.

1.) Given that both of these skills imply that they stack, the skills don't have anything similar to them in their configs that would lead to that conclusion.
2.) What is Iron Mage's "oldaothandling" doing? That's the first time I've seen it, and it isn't being used in similar stacking skills (Fury, umbralist Marks).
3.) Fury itself has an upgrade that increases it's maximum stack count, but doesn't set one by default. I see the property "fury_max_victim_count", but that isn't referenced elsewhere in the skill's config.

The general impression I'm getting from Iron Mage's description and it's skill config together is that the damage reduction IS supposed to stack with itself, it's just such a short duration that you aren't likely to get very many of them. It may also be quirky in that it only counts on cast, so sustained channeled spells may only activate it once.

So yes, I would report Iron Mage to MantisBT. They either need to clarify the description, or fix the perk itself, something's off.

On a side note, but a similar topic, has anyone used Fury (without the 10 point upgrade) and seen it stack? That might actually be related in this case. Either by finding another bug, or that not everything that makes a skill work is in these configs.

[Meroldys]

I tried using the perk in a way to stack it as I have like 5 summons and 1 skill that require zero mana and it is not a channel skill.(and it activates the perk)

Either it does not show the stack on the buff and on stats tab or it does not stack.

On a side note I don't get the e-mail fom mantis for some reason using gmail here.(trying to set up an account)

[Feline Pawtism]

That happens. Give it a couple hours. If it doesn't show up, you can try contacting them directly. Posting on their own forums may work, or you could also try an email to "[e-mail]". I had to contact them directly to get my Mantis account activated during the beta.

When you use the skill, with the stats panel open, does it show you at least a 10% damage reduction? It's using the same application process as what I used for my Protector mod, so I believe it should register under Damage Reduction as "0/10%".

If it's actually displaying a 10% there, then we know it's at least functioning and displaying properly.

[Meroldys]

Just checked that panel seems like it stacks...2 times...but not more. So from 10% I go up to 30% but nothing more stops there as it seems.

And now I just saw that Mirror Image or Storm spirit does not count as a spell according to the perk as they don't refresh the buff...

So I'm positive it not works 100% as it is written down in tooltip.

Thanks for the help it is a pretty useful perk but it needs some fix I think.

Edit: Flame serpent does not trigger it too...

Edit2: Fun Fact all three skills that does not trigger it are labbeled as "Spell" by the tooltip.

Edit3: Seems like the stacks are working one by one so even they stack they won't refresh each other so I can only have 2 stacks at the moment maybe with a skill that has really fast attack speed someone can get more.

[Feline Pawtism]

Alright. That's progress. Let's go down the list.

So it IS stacking, the buff icon just doesn't show it.

The reason it doesn't get higher than 30% is because it's configured to remove stacks after 2 seconds. If there's a 2 second space between the first stack and the 4th, then the first one drops and you're still left with 3, for 30%.

It doesn't apply on pet creation. I may have an explaination for that. Notice what Iron Mage is looking for.

targetgroupcount=1
targetgroup[0].actiontarget=event_params
targetgroup[0].event=global_cooldown_spell_casted

It's looking for an event, specifically, one that's, if I'm interpreting this right, a spell cast on (or triggering) a global cooldown.

Energy Bolt:
category=magic
flags=global_cooldown,lightning,elemental
state[0].name=cast
state[0].animinfo.animtype=CastSpell
action[0].actiontype=createmagic__new

Lightning:
category=magic
flags=global_cooldown,lightning,elemental
state[0].name=cast
state[0].animinfo.animtype=CastSpell
action[1].actiontype=createmagic__new

Flame Serpent:
category=magic
flags=upkeep
state[0].name=cast
state[0].animinfo.animtype=CastSpell

Mirror Image:
category=magic
state[0].name=cast
state[0].animinfo.animtype=CastSpell

Storm Spirit:
category=magic
state[0].name=cast
state[0].animinfo.animtype=CastSpell

Notice something missing from Flame Serpent, Mirror Image and Storm Spirit? They have no flags (or just one, in Flame Serpent's case), and they have no actiontype that's labeled "createmagic".

My guess is it's the former that's important. Global_cooldown is probably referring to the flag "global_cooldown", and spell_casted is probably referring to the category "magic". Since the two summon spells have no "global_cooldown" flag, Iron Mage doesn't see them as a valid trigger.

So the intended bug report may have changed. We know that Iron Mage is stacking, even if it doesn't show it on the buff icon. However, we also know that certain spells aren't triggering it, and I think we discovered why.

If the "global_cooldown" flag is the reason there are actually several Elementalist spells that don't have that flag and therefore won't trigger Iron Mage. Here's the list:

Flame Serpent
Ink Leap
Mirror Image
Painlessness
Storm Spirit
Stream of Bolts

Some of those may be purposely off the global cooldown by design (Ink Leap and Painlessness in particular), but that means that they probably need to change Iron Mage to trigger from some other method. Stream of Bolts is an attack, there's definitely no reason why it wouldn't trigger the perk.

[Meroldys]

Yeah the global cooldown seems to be the thing I guess it's there to prevent abuse of the perk?.
I mean with enough mana I could spam a lot of skills that does not have global cd and get a high stack.

Still seems a bit stupid as I will lose it in 2 seconds anyway.

And I was thinking about using Stream of Bolts later...great...

Seems like the perk was made for the ray skills as you chanel it and have to stand in 1 place.

Still the tooltip of the perk is kinda broke and needs a fix for sure.

[datguy13]

Some of those (Stream of Bolts comes to mind) might have intentionally removed the qualifier to avoid exploitation of the Perk. There might also have been weird issues with mass-triggering or infinity loops when machine-gunning certain Skills which may have led to crashes. It's speculation on my part, but I feel it's logical speculation based on prior behavoir the coders have used when fixing other bugs or applying balance changes.

I'm a bit leery of using a Skill (Fury) to compare with a Perk (Iron Mage), but the theory you're developing does appear to show some issues with that Perk, A Cat.

[Meroldys]

Originally posted by datguy13:

Some of those (Stream of Bolts comes to mind) might have intentionally removed the qualifier to avoid exploitation of the Perk. There might also have been weird issues with mass-triggering or infinity loops when machine-gunning certain Skills which may have led to crashes. It's speculation on my part, but I feel it's logical speculation based on prior behavoir the coders have used when fixing other bugs or applying balance changes.

I'm a bit leery of using a Skill (Fury) to compare with a Perk (Iron Mage), but the theory you're developing does appear to show some issues with that Perk, A Cat.

Yeah but spending one perk point to realize 60% of your skills does not even benefit from it while they are a labaled as "spell" is kinda disappointing.

[Feline Pawtism]

Originally posted by datguy13:

Some of those (Stream of Bolts comes to mind) might have intentionally removed the qualifier to avoid exploitation of the Perk. There might also have been weird issues with mass-triggering or infinity loops when machine-gunning certain Skills which may have led to crashes. It's speculation on my part, but I feel it's logical speculation based on prior behavoir the coders have used when fixing other bugs or applying balance changes.

Might be a possibility, but Iron Mage appears to work on other sustained spells such as the Rays of Entropy, Frost, and Destruction. However, the machine-gunning you mentioned may be the key there. The Rays use "casttarget.casttarget=caster", applying an effect to the caster first and then generating an effect that strikes enemies, whereas Stream of Bolts uses "casttarget.targetsoldierside=enemy", firing the attacks off directly. That could be interpreted as it's only technically casting once for the Rays, since the attack is generated from the effect on the caster, and the effect only exists until the caster lets go, versus the rapid firing of the Stream of Bolts directly. We'd need to watch the DR% on the stats screen while using a Ray to see how it reacts.

It is still a bit misleading however that some spells activate it and others don't, and leads to thinking it might be a bug when it was an intended design choice.

Originally posted by Meroldys:

Yeah but spending one perk point to realize 60% of your skills does not even benefit from it while they are a labaled as "spell" is kinda disappointing.

That. Some clarification would be nice. Probably on the Perk itself rather than the skills so that it doesn't spoil an upcoming reward.

Originally posted by datguy13:

I'm a bit leery of using a Skill (Fury) to compare with a Perk (Iron Mage), but the theory you're developing does appear to show some issues with that Perk, A Cat.

I know how you feel. Skills, Auras, and Perks all run from the same configuration structure, with the same properties and actions. You're right, there may be some variation behind the scenes that we're not seeing, but given what we have access to it was the closest thing I could find.

Luckily we figured out that the core of Iron Mage perk is actually functioning normally, it's the buff icon and interactions with a few skills that are the problem.