was the LGBTQ awarness in Bl3 really that bad?

[F3LLGaming]

i have heard this one complained about a lot and i literally cant see it. the main argument is they ruined those characters stories and blew up there importance but i dont see it. character like Hammerlock and Wainwright had like no pre-existing story really. we knew very little about hammerlock before BL3 and wainwright was literally introduced in BL3. if anything this gave them MORE story and fleshed them out more rather than ruin it. plus we already knew hammerlock and wainwright were gay so i dont see how this ruined them. its not DLC 2 bombed us with this info. also did you know Tina is Bisexual? yeah. bet you didnt because its only explained in one side mission that requires another side mission to be done before having access to it. you dont see people complaining she was ruined. as for importance i guess it did kinda out-shine a few other characters but also not really. i mean there were a lot more memorable characters than hammerlock and wainwright in BL3. personally characters like Mancubus or even fricking Burton Briggs outshine those 2 in being memorable. look im not trying to rage bait or jester farm. im trying to start a conversation here because i literally do NOT get what people are on about.

[F3LLGaming]

Junipercat a écrit :

F3LL a écrit :

you know what? why do i even TRY to make discussions in this community? it eitheir leads to idiots or biased people getting involved and it goes down hill. i will leave this up till tomorrow and im deleting this post. this community is just so damn toxic its not worth trying to explain or start conversations. i give up. wallow in your ignorance. im done entertaining it

Being that the forum is rather public, you will get people of differing opinions. Having others only agree with your point of view, especially when you are trying to understand the perspective of others, does not result in a discussion but instead a sounding board of "yes men".

I stand by there is no issue with inclusiveness itself. The problem I see is when what is built up in story and lore, or the development of existing characters, is sacrificed in order to force inclusiveness or to push a message of awareness. When you devalue a story or existing characters to switch from a video game to enjoy into pushing a message as a primary priority, I feel that is insulting to those it tries to "represent" and ends up backfiring.

The Borderlands series, which is now 4 games in on the main titles (5 once BL4 is released), is about being a Vault Hunter going through crazy action in a first person shooter perspective. Sure there are LBG, etc. in the game world, but people play a video game to have fun with the action not play it simply because certain character groups exist in it.

People just don't want it to go like "Play this game because it has LBQT!", "ok cool, what is the game like?", "It doesn't matter because it has LBQT so it has everything it needs!, we are so awesome a game company because we have them, don't worry about the story and gameplay because who cares?". A bit extreme but it is the concern voiced by many. Focus on the game and let the inclusiveness occur naturally instead of forced.

im only responding to this because thats what i was trying to say but failed to in my post: were they really even PUSHING a lbtq agenda? like from my eyes no story was sacrificed, and theres no forcing that it being inclusive is a reason to play. like i have heard NOBODY say you should play this because its inclusive and thats it. the main arguement people have for it was it ruined the story but like what was ruined or torn down? thats what i dont get. all the characters that are LBTQ had little to no story and i cant understand how it ruined the game. nobody was devalued because there is nobody TO devalue. if anything all it does is bring more light to those characters, not shut down other ones. also the build of characters WASNT sacrificed because of inclusiveness. like i feel people just think it did because this games writing was trash and want to assign more reasons to hate it. in reality, if you look at it, MOST people arent gonna give a damn about the LGBTQ characters. they are gonna say "oh neat" and move on. thats what I did at least. its only the actual like gay or lesbian people that are gonna overvalue those characters, not the whole ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ community.

[F3LLGaming]

also gonna add on to that and note that nobody complained about Athena and Springs having a relationship in BLPS or even Tales even tho it was a HUGE plot point that you could argue ALSO ruined the story yet nobody complains about that one, yet go to BL3 and people rage about hammerlock and wainwright being gay and it ruining the story. again, i feel its people just wanting more reason to hate on this game.

[Junipercat]

When coming from the prior games, staple characters were shall we say segregated in perception. Certain ones were made to look better, not by their own merits, but by sidelining or make a joke out of other characters who did not share specific characteristics. It was not the sole issue with the game, but a key one people focus on because of how it is perceived to push inclusiveness artificially. So for the main game it focused on empowering female characters by sidelining or making joke characters/whipping boys out of the male counterparts. That is where I say build up on their own merits instead of bringing down others just to look better.

I remember a lot of backlash occurred because of Springs. Personally I liked the character. I think part of what threw some off is that she was young, a bit girl crazy, and just overall earlier in her growing up compared to Hammerlock who was at a bit later stage in life to where he had settled into who he was for the long run. The Athena/Springs relationship was just another piece of the world, not something the game focused on putting into the spotlight so was more accepted as didn't take away from the game itself.

Regarding the Wainright/Hammerlock DLC, there were a few issues that people had with it. First was that their sexuality and relationship was the driving force of the entire DLC. It wasn't just another part of their characters to build the world but the main focal point behind the majority of what you did in that DLC. It was banned in some countries because of that. As for the ending cinematic, yes some took that as advertising the agenda. I on the other hand found it misplaced pretty much with any pairing. Borderlands is not a romance/relationship genre game. At best claptrap getting married and getting shocked for his efforts (during ceremony or "later") would have been a piece of comedy that would have fit the tone of the series.

In addition, I think Gaige would be a prime example where they devalued a character and pushed aside to focus on the other parts. She is barely even a shadow of her BL2 version. Instead of being the quirky mechanical genius with a love of good hot chocolate and the occasional podcast, with energy to spare, she was turned into a delicate damsel only there to hold up the main pair.

The DLCs still brought up the quality of the game up compared to the base game. I think outside the insult they did to Gaige, they were doing better with the characters overall. So I hope they can continue the transition from the horrible base game into the DLCs and have BL4 be much more balanced in the story and character development.

I applaud you attempting a serious discussion and trying to understand where others are coming from on this. We may not all agree, but at least unlike many others you are being respectful.

And a point I feel I must stress, not to cause any insult, but to showcase a key difference in perspective that may be the hurdle you are trying to overcome.

F3LL a écrit :

ok i just realized that not that relevant but just thought id share that putting characters that are gay or have mental illnesses in your game is a good thing even if its writing is bad or ruins some other aspects. representation is representation.

That is where it seems (at least to my view) where representation is the priority to you that writing and other aspects are fine to sacrifice. I on the other hand prefer games that have good writing or at least don't sacrifice aspects (story, lore character development, etc.). Otherwise that is pushing representation as an agenda instead of focusing on having a good game regardless. Put characters in because it makes sense and flows with the game, not solely based on representation otherwise then it is giving special status to them above others.

Having them be in the game, strong characters or not, isn't the issue. The concern is how it is done and do you have a more enjoyable game for it or did you just pat yourself on the back because you included someone on a checklist? So the reasons and how it affects the quality of the game are what it boils down to (at least in my opinion).

Sorry I know this one was long, but had to let the words flow. I'll cut it off there to avoid sounding overly repetitive.

(edited for some typos)

[Casurin]

F3LL a écrit :

you know what? why do i even TRY to make discussions in this community? it eitheir leads to idiots or biased people getting involved and it goes down hill. i will leave this up till tomorrow and im deleting this post. this community is just so damn toxic its not worth trying to explain or start conversations. i give up. wallow in your ignorance. im done entertaining it

Thanks for showing that you are not open for actual discussion but only seek validation in your toxic behaviour.
Always the biggots and racists that claim they are on the moral highground.

[Holografix]

F3LL a écrit :

also gonna add on to that and note that nobody complained about Athena and Springs having a relationship in BLPS or even Tales even tho it was a HUGE plot point that you could argue ALSO ruined the story yet nobody complains about that one, yet go to BL3 and people rage about hammerlock and wainwright being gay and it ruining the story. again, i feel its people just wanting more reason to hate on this game.

there's a hate campaign against BL3. rage intoxicates people and induces them to post online. it's a toxic cycle.

[Jamie]

kukuhimanpr a écrit :

b1+b2+b1.5+tftb for the most parts feels like they can be enjoyed by more general audience.

b3+ttwl feels like they're more targeted for them exclusive group, with the general audience consciously/unconsciously feeling like they're forced to bow down to them exclusive group to enjoy b3+ttwl. extra suck for fans of og old school borderlands entries that can't play some parts of b3+ttwl due to the banning in several countries. would have been much better if b3+ttwl try to be like its oldskool predecessors making sure eveyone can have fun instead of making sure them exclusive group gets vip treatment while general audience is forced to clap along and pretend they're enjoying the experience.

ntftb's barrage of new ocs just fails to impress most of the players+newcomers.

Borderlands 5 is gonna be so bad, you think it was bad in B3? They are gonna tripple down. 2Ks top 3 shareholders are Black Rock, State Street and Vanguard and every single game whether it be from EA, Microsoft,Ubisoft has atleast one if not all 3 at the top shareholders, and every game that comes out of them are Dragon Age The Veilguard since 2020's Summer of Love. B5 will be the last Borderlands and wont even crack 1mil sold. Id bet my life on that. ...the #1 question we ALL should be asking is, why do people care so much about sexual ♥♥♥♥ in videogames these days? it never was a fad up until the great reset of 2020.

[Jamie]

Holografix a écrit :

F3LL a écrit :

also gonna add on to that and note that nobody complained about Athena and Springs having a relationship in BLPS or even Tales even tho it was a HUGE plot point that you could argue ALSO ruined the story yet nobody complains about that one, yet go to BL3 and people rage about hammerlock and wainwright being gay and it ruining the story. again, i feel its people just wanting more reason to hate on this game.

there's a hate campaign against BL3. rage intoxicates people and induces them to post online. it's a toxic cycle.

calling it a "hate campaign" is gaslighting.

[kukuhimanpr]

yea its obvious b3 writers prioritize pandering to hmo markets (and ava+the twins) rather than to making sure b3 story and character relevancy+development of returning borderlands stars are consistently living up to the legacy build ups from the endings of b2+b1.5+tftb.

and it looks very likely gbx would rehire b3 writers again for b4. so its a clear irreversible loss for fans of oldskool b1+b1.5+b2+tftb era. gbx would rather leave them behind in dust like markus' bus leaving behind oldskool characters in favor of getting profits from b3 fans, pro hmo groups and players who only cares about gameplay.

[Holografix]

Jamie a écrit :

Holografix a écrit :

there's a hate campaign against BL3. rage intoxicates people and induces them to post online. it's a toxic cycle.

calling it a "hate campaign" is gaslighting.

no it's not.

[Holografix]

kukuhimanpr a écrit :

yea its obvious b3 writers prioritize pandering to hmo markets (and ava+the twins) rather than to making sure b3 story and character relevancy+development of returning borderlands stars are consistently living up to the legacy build ups from the endings of b2+b1.5+tftb.

and it looks very likely gbx would rehire b3 writers again for b4. so its a clear irreversible loss for fans of oldskool b1+b1.5+b2+tftb era. gbx would rather leave them behind in dust like markus' bus leaving behind oldskool characters in favor of getting profits from b3 fans, pro hmo groups and players who only cares about gameplay.

hating on dark-skinned characters under the guise of "bad writing" is how racism is done in online spaces.

[Junipercat]

Jamie a écrit :

Holografix a écrit :

there's a hate campaign against BL3. rage intoxicates people and induces them to post online. it's a toxic cycle.

calling it a "hate campaign" is gaslighting.

In general I might not think that it was, but considering the trend on who said it I absolutely agree in this case as fits their Modus Operandi.

People have their own personal reasons for not liking BL3. Some of which I agree with.

Now those that are dumping on BL4, when the game has no more info than a teaser trailer, I think many of those posts are a "hate campaign". That is because there is nothing about the game yet to make any comments good or bad about yet. Though I have my concerns because of BL3, I will wait for facts before claiming anything about BL4.

[Junipercat]

Holografix a écrit :

hating on dark-skinned characters under the guise of "bad writing" is how racism is done in online spaces.

Yet that doesn't apply to much of the complaints about BL3. It is not hate on those characters. There is much dislike on the writing and how priority in characters or their development was segregated.

The only "bad writing" I would argue is when someone posts that throwing a game console out the window is proof that BL3 is transcendent art. Hard to fathom someone being the origin for that claim doing so with a straight face and sound mind.

[kukuhimanpr]

the hate campaigns are just one of the many expressions of grief from fans of golden era of the series that felt they're being insulted and abandoned by the ip owners in favor of getting profits from newcomers to the series, yes-people and players who only care about gameplay.

i don't think gbx will be able to mend the many rifts that happened in the community since the start of b3 era. this phenomenon similarly has happened more often in these years to many other franchises in the entertainment industry. its hard to persuade people to forcefully let go and forget their grief just to have fun with the new stuff when they're constantly reminded of how the stuff they loved from the better eras are treated badly by the ip owners.

[Holografix]

kukuhimanpr a écrit :

the hate campaigns are just one of the many expressions of grief from fans of golden era of the series that felt they're being insulted and abandoned by the ip owners in favor of getting profits from newcomers to the series, yes-people and players who only care about gameplay.

i don't think gbx will be able to mend the many rifts that happened in the community since the start of b3 era. this phenomenon similarly has happened more often in these years to many other franchises in the entertainment industry. its hard to persuade people to forcefully let go and forget their grief just to have fun with the new stuff when they're constantly reminded of how the stuff they loved from the better eras are treated badly by the ip owners.

imagine being personally insulted by video game characters. i don't know how injecting grievance politics into the gaming space is productive. gamers aren't victims of evil game devs. BL3 is the best borderlands but people get a bigger thrill waging a hate campaign against it because internet.

[Casurin]

Holografix a écrit :

BL3 is the best borderlands but people get a bigger thrill waging a hate campaign against it because internet.

Says the person that is only spreading his hatred and toxicity cause he is feeling frightened by the fictional characters in BL2. I mean you dont even know the story so whatever you write is completely irrelevant.