Borderlands 3: The best narrative of the series

[Holografix]

The thread you've always wanted where the subtle crafting of BL3's story are explained, and all questions about the story are answered by people who and consider Borderland 3's story the best in the series.

So go on, ask your question!

[Holografix]

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

Originally posted by Holografix:

I suppose we can start with this, since we need some kind of start. Part of misconception about Borderlands 3 is that it's narrative directly follows Borderlands 2. But, upon closer inspection we can see that it doesn't.

Borderlands 3 follows Commander Lilith & the Fight for Sanctuary but it also takes into account the stories of Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel and Tales from the Borderlands and includes characters from those games too. Some of those characters are:

- Vaughn
- Handsome Jack's doppelganger, Timothy
- Rhys

Part of what's great about BL3's story is that it expands on all these narrative threads from the other games. Rhys is now the CEO of Atlas, Timothy is marooned on a locked-down casino...etc.

One of the reasons why BL3 may feel disjointed or 'inconsistent' to some is because you'd have to play all the Borderlands games to completion for the full glory of BL3 to reveal itself. Many did not play the Tales series or skipped the various DLCs for BL2 or the Pre-Sequel. I suggest people go and play those for a better appreciation of BL3 narrative.

How come you never explain why the story is good? All you ever do is explain plot points. Give us a a good college lecture on how this story is the best. Don't give me a play by play of the plot. Give us reasons why this story is the best.

I only answered some questions about the story from a user that posted in this thread. That's why my answers here were plot specific.

If you have a question about the story go ahead and post it.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

If you say the story is good cause you say it is good, that makes you a fan not a good story.

And the corollary is: if you say the story is bad, because you say it is bad, that makes you a hater and doesn't mean the story is bad.

And we're back to explaining plot points and relying on reading the story well, instead of poorly. A good reading, or reading the story well, is itself a way to explain how the story is a good one. Oftentimes, people dislike something because they don't understand it. That's why I explain plot points.

[SleekSycko]

Originally posted by Holografix:

If you have a question about the story go ahead and post it.

What makes BL3 a good story? Explain without explaining the plot. Show me in detail why its good. I already asked this above yet you keep deflecting.

[Casurin]

Originally posted by Holografix:

It's not. a strawman is a logical fallacy:
"A straw man argument, sometimes called a straw person argument or spelled strawman argument, is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version."

So yes it is a strawmen as you were attacking a made-up argument that nobody actually made.

Originally posted by Holografix:

But, narratively, which is what we are discussing here, it does not as BL3 includes characters and plots from different games.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point of the game just ignoring the established settings and characters of those games - hence it fits exactly the definition you quoted.

Originally posted by Holografix:

Vaughn experienced Colonel Hector's invasion in Commander Lilith's DLC and was affected by it.

..... and that made him braindead?

Originally posted by Holografix:

Auerlia wasn't an ally per se.

Aside from the fact that she was - ignoring that she was hired previously is what is called a retcon.

Originally posted by Holografix:

The upcoming war mentioned at the end of Pre-Sequel is not a BL3 plot point, it's a Pre-Sequel plot point. Just because BL3 does not address something from a previous game, doesn't mean BL3's story is inconsistent.

It is not the TPS plotpoint - it is BL3 completely disregarding the story so far.

Originally posted by Casurin:

You don't need to be rude, as i don't have to respond to you at all. i am being courteous and answering your questions about BL3, so i expect some measure of courtesy in return.

I don't need to but your constant lies are just an insult to anybody that likes and enjoys Borderlands. Being such a dishonest liar just anything but courteous - and i just answer in kind. You act like a moron and i treat you like one.

What you have shown is that you have no arguments and are just attacking the people instead of answering any questions. You failed to provide ANY good reasons so far - so you are not only a liar but also a pitiful troll.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

Originally posted by Holografix:

If you have a question about the story go ahead and post it.

What makes BL3 a good story? Explain without explaining the plot. Show me in detail why its good. I already asked this above yet you keep deflecting.

The whole story is crafted to tie together all the disparate Borderland games. And it works quite well.

Your question is pretty vague. Is there something more specific you can ask?

[Holografix]

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

What makes BL3 a good story? Explain without explaining the plot.

Although I believe I made my point clear in post #35, I suppose we can explore this prompt another way.

1.
Is it possible to write the question another way? Given the context of the question, I believe we can ask the question like this: What makes BL3 a good story, compared to the rest of the games? I think this is the intent of the original question since the main reason why BL3's story gets even brought up, is to compare it to BL2's story.

2.
It is far easier to be negative about something than be positive, especially when you're writing about it on the internet. The internet demands controversy, and negativity drives engagement. All the studies about how the internet and social media has destroyed society is based on these 2 tenets of internet interaction:
1. Be controversial
2. Be negative or critical

In this sense, it would be far easier for me to post on the Borderlands 2 forum a long list of criticisms about the game's narrative, because being critical is easier than being constructive.

3.
How do we demonstrate that a story is good, without resorting to the plot? I think this is a paradox of a question. The plot is the story, so how can we demonstrate the quality of the story without resorting to explicating plot points? I will have to think about this, and return to this thread when I have an adequate answer.

[Familial Dysautosis]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

What makes BL3 a good story? Explain without explaining the plot.

Although I believe I made my point clear in post #35, I suppose we can explore this prompt another way.

1.
Is it possible to write the question another way? Given the context of the question, I believe we can ask the question like this: What makes BL3 a good story, compared to the rest of the games? I think this is the intent of the original question since the main reason why BL3's story gets even brought up, is to compare it to BL2's story.

2.
It is far easier to be negative about something than be positive, especially when you're writing about it on the internet. The internet demands controversy, and negativity drives engagement. All the studies about how the internet and social media has destroyed society is based on these 2 tenets of internet interaction:
1. Be controversial
2. Be negative or critical

In this sense, it would be far easier for me to post on the Borderlands 2 forum a long list of criticisms about the game's narrative, because being critical is easier than being constructive.

3.
How do we demonstrate that a story is good, without resorting to the plot? I think this is a paradox of a question. The plot is the story, so how can we demonstrate the quality of the story without resorting to explicating plot points? I will have to think about this, and return to this thread when I have an adequate answer.

I dont want to get too involved in this thread but i think your taking criticism from the wrong angle as people are intending. Simply saying that its good because it takes into account that Rhys is in it, isnt explaining why its good. Thats just stating the obvious and retelling the story. Why is what they did to Rhys good? How does it line up with his story so far? You havent given examples. Id argue Rhys and Vaugn are some of the worst points to bring up. Rhys at the end of Tales learned a lot about how the buisness oreiented world he loved actually has a lot of flaws, and that there much more adventure to be had with good people and theres more to the world than money. Whats in the Vault of the traveler doesnt matter. But now we get to 3, and hes actually regressed... a lot. Hes a money driven CEO who pretty much exclusively cares about his company and his little donuts and is boiled down to a comedic relief character dressed in buisness chic. That destroys a LOT of his development. He learned you cant be a good person by being Jack 2.0. And in this, hes definetely on his way. Hes approving questionable testing, hiding things from friends, is more focused on the profit of the vault key than whats right, and talks about how he would prefer free labor and not to pay anybody. Hes arrogant and ego driven on his tech and his company and even talks ♥♥♥♥ about Tediore. Which is funny, but Tediore is WAY bigger than him and way more established. He commes accross really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ in this game, and it crushes the genuinely good character he ended up being at the end of Tales. Hes even WORSE in Tales 2 but thats not whats being discussed today. The moral is, you cant say "This story is good because it added a character we like" youve got to explain what about that inclusion was positive to the past. Otherwise no one is going to be convinced. Him reforming Atlas into a adventure supply company, or using the funds to directly fund expeditions would be a much greater step more in line with where he ended at Tales than the direction they went here.

[Familial Dysautosis]

Further to your point, there are some really good positives in this game. Blood and Tentacles has a pretty cool story with lots of connetions to Dahls expansions and its many many legions looking for gear, with a good moral to boot, we get the Western DLC which imo is one of the best written things in the franchise. Funny, but thought provoking, with enough mystery to who the company is and what they were trying to do to make it deep enough to dig into. Lastly, the Mysteriouslier story does add another bit of mystery and concequences sorely missing to the plot of the basegame. But Its hard to really credit that too much. Because it does feel like a course correction. "Oh ♥♥♥♥ we forgot about the big war the Watcher teased.... and a LOT of people are dissapointed by the direction of the main story.. uh..uh..uh... add some eridian junk. Yea! this was all just a little diversion! the real thing is coming!!!" That being said the Mysteriouslier revelations do a very good job of progressing the story forward. I just wish they did more of it in the base game.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Familial Dysautosis:

Simply saying that its good because it takes into account that Rhys is in it, isnt explaining why its good. Thats just stating the obvious and retelling the story. Why is what they did to Rhys good? How does it line up with his story so far?

... Rhys and Vaugn are some of the worst points to bring up. Rhys at the end of Tales learned a lot about how the buisness oreiented world he loved actually has a lot of flaws, and that there much more adventure to be had with good people and theres more to the world than money. Whats in the Vault of the traveler doesnt matter. But now we get to 3, and hes actually regressed... a lot. Hes a money driven CEO who pretty much exclusively cares about his company and his little donuts and is boiled down to a comedic relief character dressed in buisness chic. That destroys a LOT of his development. He learned you cant be a good person by being Jack 2.0. And in this, hes definetely on his way.

You bring up an interesting point with the example of Rhys and Vaughn. Mainly, that there seem to be different versions of the same characters in different games, and that because it's one character spanning multiple games (for example, Rhys in Tales 1,2 & BL3) the character should follow the narrative arc of the previous games especially in their character personality and development.

I don't think that Rhys in BL3 is a regression, or a diminishment of the character from his previous appearances. Much like how Anthony Burch wrote Jack as two different personalities in BL2 and the consequent Pre-Sequel, and how Kojima wrote Snake as two different personalities in MGSV, Borderlands 3 Rhys is just another facet of Rhys. In the Pre-Sequel Jack is becoming the Jack in BL2. In MGSV, Snake is becoming the Big Boss of Metal Gear 1. In MGSV, we are Snake, and we can't see the character as bad. It is only after really paying attention to the story that we see past the frame of the story to see the character revealed. Same goes for all the playable characters in PreSeq. They're presented as heros, but really they are all villainous.

Tales treats Rhys as some kind of benevolent CEO, but the harsh reality is that CEOs, especially those manufacturing weaponry, aren't actually decent people. And this reality is hidden from us by the frame of the story in Tales. Even the name 'Tales' implies myth-making and telling "tall tales." Borderlands 3, via echo logs, reveals Rhys for what he really is, a conniving empty suit who upon 'discovering' alien technology (the vault under Promethea) builds Atlas into a successful corporate weapons manufacturer.

This is one of the big contributions of Borderlands 3. It shifts the frame of the Borderlands narrative so that we can see the characters from a different perspective and I'd argue a more realistic one. Take Lilith, for example. In Borderlands 3, she's barely there except to lead the Crimson Raiders to the next location. She's much more subdued, more pensive, more secretive and I'd wager that she's being depicted as someone who is depressed.

I think it's important to read Borderlands 3 as a narrative that places doubt on the veracity of how the previous games told their story and expressed their characters. BL3 introduces the idea of the unreliable narrator, especially when it comes to the returning characters.

--- Since your response was dense, I'll respond to the rest of it at a later date.

[Casurin]

So - Rhys and Vaughn had complete character-changes to the worse - all their character development in the tales-game previously was just reverted and they became less competent, less relateable, more stupid and egomanical in general from one second to the other.
With no development or explanation given what so ever.

And this retcon is "big contribution" to BL3? Yeah the big contribution you say is literally just retconing and destroying the previous established timeline and characters.

[SleekSycko]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

What makes BL3 a good story? Explain without explaining the plot.

Although I believe I made my point clear in post #35, I suppose we can explore this prompt another way.

1.
Is it possible to write the question another way? Given the context of the question, I believe we can ask the question like this: What makes BL3 a good story, compared to the rest of the games? I think this is the intent of the original question since the main reason why BL3's story gets even brought up, is to compare it to BL2's story.

2.
It is far easier to be negative about something than be positive, especially when you're writing about it on the internet. The internet demands controversy, and negativity drives engagement. All the studies about how the internet and social media has destroyed society is based on these 2 tenets of internet interaction:
1. Be controversial
2. Be negative or critical

In this sense, it would be far easier for me to post on the Borderlands 2 forum a long list of criticisms about the game's narrative, because being critical is easier than being constructive.

3.
How do we demonstrate that a story is good, without resorting to the plot? I think this is a paradox of a question. The plot is the story, so how can we demonstrate the quality of the story without resorting to explicating plot points? I will have to think about this, and return to this thread when I have an adequate answer.

Just going to assume you haven't taken a writing class because you can explain why a story is good without resorting to the plot. Hell, creative writing 101 you have to do book reports without summarizing the plot. Again deflecting.

[SleekSycko]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

What makes BL3 a good story? Explain without explaining the plot. Show me in detail why its good. I already asked this above yet you keep deflecting.

The whole story is crafted to tie together all the disparate Borderland games. And it works quite well.

Your question is pretty vague. Is there something more specific you can ask?

It's not vague. You just don't know how to answer it. If you asked me what makes The Dark Knight Returns a good story, I could could give you an essay on why it is. I don't need specific questions. You started a thread on a baseless claim and say everyone that doesn't like the story are confused or numb skulls. Your entire MGSV argument goes out the window too. You aren't Big Boss. You are the medic. Kojima didn't write two different personalities. You are a different guy. And MGS is never about good vs evil. There are so many themes in MGS series that that simple them is not even one. Like I said deflecting. Also just cause CEO stereotypes are a thing doesn't mean Rhys can't rise above them. Rhys at the end of Tales went a character journey and realized he didn't want to be the crap CEO his old boss was.

"Obviously money isn't everything... Sure,sure it's important but... It doesn't have to drive your existence like it did mine." - Rhys

That line right there is all the character development that he spent from the entire adventure summed up in one amazing line. BL3 and New tales then go on to butcher and retcon all the previous works to make joke characters with trope after trope cause character writing is hard.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by SleekSycko:

Originally posted by Holografix:

The whole story is crafted to tie together all the disparate Borderland games. And it works quite well.

Your question is pretty vague. Is there something more specific you can ask?

It's not vague. You just don't know how to answer it. If you asked me what makes The Dark Knight Returns a good story, I could could give you an essay on why it is. I don't need specific questions. You started a thread on a baseless claim and say everyone that doesn't like the story are confused or numb skulls. Your entire MGSV argument goes out the window too. You aren't Big Boss. You are the medic. Kojima didn't write two different personalities. You are a different guy. And MGS is never about good vs evil. There are so many themes in MGS series that that simple them is not even one. Like I said deflecting. Also just cause CEO stereotypes are a thing doesn't mean Rhys can't rise above them. Rhys at the end of Tales went a character journey and realized he didn't want to be the crap CEO his old boss was.

"Obviously money isn't everything... Sure,sure it's important but... It doesn't have to drive your existence like it did mine." - Rhys

That line right there is all the character development that he spent from the entire adventure summed up in one amazing line. BL3 and New tales then go on to butcher and retcon all the previous works to make joke characters with trope after trope cause character writing is hard.

1.
I'll wait for your essay on The Dark Knight.
2.
The following 2 quotes from me are what my thread is all about:

Borderlands 3: The best narrative of the series
The thread you've always wanted where the subtle crafting of BL3's story are explained, and all questions about the story are answered by people who HEART and consider Borderland 3's story the best in the series. So go on, ask your question!

Well, it's all subjective opinion. But in this thread, instead of posting negativity about BL3, I will post comments about how and why i think BL3 is the best narrative of the series. The specifics are the story questions people post here. Otherwise, it will just be me posting little asides and commentary on certain scenes in the game,

As you can see, I'm not interested in posting negativity about BL3, nor am I concerned with other people's mental states. i'm not insulting anyone, but if you take my positive comments about Borderlands 3 as personal insults, then maybe you need to take a break from the internet.
3.
I disagree with your reading of MGSV, as it misses some of the depth and beauty of Kojima's narrative. Venom is indeed Snake.
4.
Rhys' quote from the end of Tales, is pretty much what his character is in BL3.

[Casurin]

Originally posted by Holografix:

but if you take my positive comments about Borderlands 3 as personal insults

You havent even managed to make a single positive comment what so ever - instead it is you that has insulted everybody that has pointed out just how flawed BL3 is in comparison to the rest of the BL series - and BL never had a great story to begin with.

Originally posted by Holografix:

then maybe you need to take a break from the internet.

That should apply to you - the person that can't handle other people having a differing opinion.

Originally posted by Holografix:

Rhys' quote from the end of Tales, is pretty much what his character is in BL3.

!??!? Have you been completely drunk and stoned when playing BL3?

[SleekSycko]

Originally posted by Holografix:

I disagree with your reading of MGSV, as it misses some of the depth and beauty of Kojima's narrative. Venom is indeed Snake.

This right here. If you were a true fan you would of got the true ending written by Kojima and even explains why Metal Gear Big Boss is a clone.

Stop with the misdirect and deflecting already. Just explain your side. Idk how you can't do that positively then that's on you. Not once have you given a single reason why BL3's writing is good. Enough of your thinking people are "offended" by your empty words and defend your claim.