Random mayhem modifiers is a dumb mechanic

[Balthazar]

I mean dont get me wrong , i like the idea of modifiers , but it's stupid having them random. Instead they shoudl let you chose which one you want to have , keeping the easy,medium,hard nad very hard format .At the moment its random, which is anoying because you can reroll very easy , and can take up to 10 minutes to have those you want. Point is why waste time rerolling instead of chosing them yourself?

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by Jerubius:

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

It only applies to M6 and M10 though.

They are kind of the most relevant, but still, for the rest current system makes no sense because 3-mods you can roll to exact combo pretty fast.

True, but that also means it's not worth the development time to change those ones unless it's a complete overhaul of the system, rather than redesign part of the UI just to fix a minor inconvenience.

Yeah, that also.

I hope though that one day they might rethink the modifiers and replace the ones that have direct impact on builds.

[Casurin]

It has been suggested to them several times (and several times those threads have been locked/deleted in the Gearbox forum).

It would be really nice if we could just select the modifiers (bonus for saving selections in a favorite-list). That would be minimal work as it is only a selection from an already existing list of options.
Heck, why not make it so we can also select MORE options than required for a specific mayhem level (with some extra increase for drops)? Some people would sure want that too.
The thing thatreally defines Mayhem for me so far is the mayhem it caused cause it is so unbalanced and broken.



To the people claiming this is a bad idea:
Try coming up with an actual argument for once.

If you have a built around elemental-damage focused on fire - what do you do when fire-immunity comes up? Right - re-roll.
If you are going for a robot-infested area and corrosion-immunity? Re-Roll.
The current system is just an annoyance to boreline broken.

[omega]

Originally posted by Master Blaster:

Maybe you’re not getting the meaning of the first word...”Mayhem”

this

[Marfig]

Originally posted by ZT Xperimentor:

Meanwhile next to nobody plays in true vault hunter mode because it's only a difficulty spike; picking the modifiers you want would make it worth while, or at least not as irksome.

Doesn't TVHM influence the base value the Mayhem modifiers act on? So, 200% more loot on TVHM is better than on normal mode. At Mayhem level 5, with 1000% the benefits of TVHM should be even more noticeable. And so forth.

[Jerubius]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Originally posted by Jerubius:

True, but that also means it's not worth the development time to change those ones unless it's a complete overhaul of the system, rather than redesign part of the UI just to fix a minor inconvenience.

Yeah, that also.

I hope though that one day they might rethink the modifiers and replace the ones that have direct impact on builds.

Eh, it's really not so bad. Spent a lot of time running dazed and infused M10 on an elemental Amara build, and basically all it meant was I had to switch weapons a little more often. That and the single element infusion ones are the main ones I see complaints about, usually in regard to elemental Amara builds. Then there's just the absolute absurdity of yellowcake trivializing the infusion modifiers, with which I've two shot radiation immune enemies with thanks to the capstone for Amara's elemental tree (which means I'm only doing a mere 18% of it's actual damage). The reduced crit damage one also sucks for Fl4k, but I just don't really do it on any character, because I'm always running at least one weapon dependent on crits, even if my primary weapon is something like a lob that can't crit. If not the face at least worked like the infusions, where it only applied to some enemies, I'd like it a lot more.

Overall, I'm of the opinion that any build overly dependent on a single strategy/weapon is a bad build, and modifiers that make some enemies hard counter them are good, especially on the harder difficulties, where you should need a well made build to compete.

Originally posted by Marfig:

Originally posted by ZT Xperimentor:

Meanwhile next to nobody plays in true vault hunter mode because it's only a difficulty spike; picking the modifiers you want would make it worth while, or at least not as irksome.

Doesn't TVHM influence the base value the Mayhem modifiers act on? So, 200% more loot on TVHM is better than on normal mode. At Mayhem level 5, with 1000% the benefits of TVHM should be even more noticeable. And so forth.

As far as I understand, all TVHM does is increase the spawn rate of badass, anointed, and loot enemies. That kind of gives better drop rates, because those enemy types have good drop rates, and kind of makes it harder because those enemies are harder than your average enemy, but doesn't change anything for something like boss farming.

[Marfig]

Originally posted by Jerubius:

Originally posted by Marfig:

Doesn't TVHM influence the base value the Mayhem modifiers act on? So, 200% more loot on TVHM is better than on normal mode. At Mayhem level 5, with 1000% the benefits of TVHM should be even more noticeable. And so forth.

As far as I understand, all TVHM does is increase the spawn rate of badass, anointed, and loot enemies. That kind of gives better drop rates, because those enemy types have good drop rates, and kind of makes it harder because those enemies are harder than your average enemy, but doesn't change anything for something like boss farming.

Thanks. It's quite unfortunate. I always liked the idea of a second playthrough (but not a third one). But in BL3 that does seems to have been made meaningless.

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by Jerubius:

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Yeah, that also.

I hope though that one day they might rethink the modifiers and replace the ones that have direct impact on builds.

Eh, it's really not so bad. Spent a lot of time running dazed and infused M10 on an elemental Amara build, and basically all it meant was I had to switch weapons a little more often. That and the single element infusion ones are the main ones I see complaints about, usually in regard to elemental Amara builds. Then there's just the absolute absurdity of yellowcake trivializing the infusion modifiers, with which I've two shot radiation immune enemies with thanks to the capstone for Amara's elemental tree (which means I'm only doing a mere 18% of it's actual damage). The reduced crit damage one also sucks for Fl4k, but I just don't really do it on any character, because I'm always running at least one weapon dependent on crits, even if my primary weapon is something like a lob that can't crit. If not the face at least worked like the infusions, where it only applied to some enemies, I'd like it a lot more.

Overall, I'm of the opinion that any build overly dependent on a single strategy/weapon is a bad build, and modifiers that make some enemies hard counter them are good, especially on the harder difficulties, where you should need a well made build to compete.

It's not about beating the modifiers, I have 30 weapons on a single build and they can deal with anything.

It is about I do not like to reroll the modifiers when I want to switch to a different weapons. And a lot of the modifiers make part of my weaponary useless or at least severely handicapped.

That is not to mentioned stupid big heads and few other that are just annoying.

[Jerubius]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Originally posted by Jerubius:

Eh, it's really not so bad. Spent a lot of time running dazed and infused M10 on an elemental Amara build, and basically all it meant was I had to switch weapons a little more often. That and the single element infusion ones are the main ones I see complaints about, usually in regard to elemental Amara builds. Then there's just the absolute absurdity of yellowcake trivializing the infusion modifiers, with which I've two shot radiation immune enemies with thanks to the capstone for Amara's elemental tree (which means I'm only doing a mere 18% of it's actual damage). The reduced crit damage one also sucks for Fl4k, but I just don't really do it on any character, because I'm always running at least one weapon dependent on crits, even if my primary weapon is something like a lob that can't crit. If not the face at least worked like the infusions, where it only applied to some enemies, I'd like it a lot more.

Overall, I'm of the opinion that any build overly dependent on a single strategy/weapon is a bad build, and modifiers that make some enemies hard counter them are good, especially on the harder difficulties, where you should need a well made build to compete.

It's not about beating the modifiers, I have 30 weapons on a single build and they can deal with anything.

It is about I do not like to reroll the modifiers when I want to switch to a different weapons. And a lot of the modifiers make part of my weaponary useless or at least severely handicapped.

That is not to mentioned stupid big heads and few other that are just annoying.

Outside of the two crit ones, none of them severely handicap certain weapons though.

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by Jerubius:

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

It's not about beating the modifiers, I have 30 weapons on a single build and they can deal with anything.

It is about I do not like to reroll the modifiers when I want to switch to a different weapons. And a lot of the modifiers make part of my weaponary useless or at least severely handicapped.

That is not to mentioned stupid big heads and few other that are just annoying.

Outside of the two crit ones, none of them severely handicap certain weapons though.

Elemental resistance handicap elemental weapons. Rogue lite handicaps weapons that are easy to down (and bring back up) yourself with. There is also one decrease accuracy and handling that hits weapons that require precission. Lava floor says hello to 0.m usage. Mb some more.

[Orzeker]

Originally posted by Jerubius:

Originally posted by Balthazar:

What will make you not chose differnt modifiers?
I dont get this communitty sometimes , you want it random , you can always change the modiffiers random , but let normal people chose what they want , try different options without the dumb reroll mechanic.
Same can be said about mayhem + weapons , you think they break game you dont use it and let the others do , like i said sometimes this communitty eludes normal people understanding its like you want to live a dumber life, but wont let others enjoy it too.
Nuff said i made my point of view clear and its impossible sometimes to reason with these people ....

If you're familiar with Destiny 2, they implemented a system very much like this for their nightfalls, where they had a bunch of modifiers to change how they played, with score multipliers depending on how hard they were. Within a couple days, the community figured out the optimal combination and every other modifier might as well of not have existed. That ultimately made it kind of a disappointing waste of development resources, and it's since been mostly phased out in favor of a weekly rotation. That's more or less the same situation mayhem mode would be in. In either case it's behavior reinforced by the rest of the game resulting in an unintended experience.

Its on them then, if all the modifiers arent balance how is it the players fault? OFC we're gonna use whats the best for our builds (Also its a lot easier to gear up in destiny than in borderlands, especially right now with a broken M10 and 90% of weapons are useless), build and weapon choice are limited right now so i dont see why its a problem to choose the modifiers, its not like anybody is gonna use the modifier that increase grenade dmg in m10 when they're not even scaled up yet ....

[Jerubius]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Originally posted by Jerubius:

Outside of the two crit ones, none of them severely handicap certain weapons though.

Elemental resistance handicap elemental weapons. Rogue lite handicaps weapons that are easy to down (and bring back up) yourself with. There is also one decrease accuracy and handling that hits weapons that require precission. Lava floor says hello to 0.m usage. Mb some more.

The elemental ones Don't gimp the weapons though. That's my point. It just makes it so you can't use that weapon all the time, which is already the case anyways. You should already be switching pretty frequently to efficiently deal with armor, shields and health, and this just further reinforces that. Fairly certain that reduced accuracy doesn't exist, or I haven't seen it, and I'll give you that the lava one hurts a niche playstyle, but I'd categorize it more in that annoying category than anything.

[Aztek]

Everyone who is re-rolling until they have what they want, coming here and disagreeing like they don't. Think they are cool or something. So you are playing with Mob Mentality, Not the Face, Pain Tolerance, Ticked Off etc. without re-rolling when you have them and expect us to believe you eh?

[Jerubius]

Originally posted by Orzeker:

Originally posted by Jerubius:

If you're familiar with Destiny 2, they implemented a system very much like this for their nightfalls, where they had a bunch of modifiers to change how they played, with score multipliers depending on how hard they were. Within a couple days, the community figured out the optimal combination and every other modifier might as well of not have existed. That ultimately made it kind of a disappointing waste of development resources, and it's since been mostly phased out in favor of a weekly rotation. That's more or less the same situation mayhem mode would be in. In either case it's behavior reinforced by the rest of the game resulting in an unintended experience.

Its on them then, if all the modifiers arent balance how is it the players fault? OFC we're gonna use whats the best for our builds (Also its a lot easier to gear up in destiny than in borderlands, especially right now with a broken M10 and 90% of weapons are useless), build and weapon choice are limited right now so i dont see why its a problem to choose the modifiers, its not like anybody is gonna use the modifier that increase grenade dmg in m10 when they're not even scaled up yet ....

Yeah, but that's not actually fixing the issues with the system. That's just creating a second problem to hide the first. And furthermore, it's not an obvious problem. There's a common assumption that more choice is always better, which pretty much any experienced game developer will tell you is wrong. Choice with obviously correct and incorrect answers is just bloat, adding nothing while also possibly weakening surrounding elements.

The current system does offer meaningful choice. It gives you the option to reroll or stick with what you have. It's unknown how long it would take to reroll for something better, but you can make some informed guesses as to whether its better to reroll or just stick with what you have. So you can't just immediately calculate what the 'correct' choice is, but you aren't making blind decisions either. It's by no means perfect, but it's a simple system that achieves the goals it set out to do.

Now, compare to directly choosing your modifiers. A 'correct' choice can easily be determined, and it's a fairly trivial choice. So it needs some further work. They could just remove the obviously 'incorrect' choices, but that's just cutting content to justify a change. They could try to rebalance modifiers so the obviously correct ones are harsher while the obviously incorrect ones are less punishing. While this is something that should come anyways, it also won't fully address the issue created by the change, only make the correct and incorrect decisions less immediately obvious. They could rework the mayhem reward drops to be attached to the modifiers, rather than to mayhem levels, with more difficult modifiers granting higher loot drop chances than others. This is basically the Destiny nightfall route, and like Destiny, it'd probably work for a short while, but it's weaknesses would show with time. So how could it surpass Destiny's solution? Continual variety. Something like a system that calculates how often certain modifiers are used and rebalances their scores based on that. Or even easier, just have a selection of modifiers that get their drop rate doubled, and which modifiers are selected changes every week. It still has a calculable solution, but it shakes things up enough that its not easy to find, and encourages usage of all the modifiers without forcing them.

So here's a solution for which manually selecting modifiers matches the reroll in providing meaningful choice and encouraging a diverse use of modifiers, but it's also a vastly more complex system. Those who really want a specific set of modifiers get things more convenient, at the cost of feeling like they're missing out. It does make it feel better than some modifiers are way more challenging than others of the same difficulty, but that's something that should probably be addressed separately.

[Jerubius]

Originally posted by Aztek:

Everyone who is re-rolling until they have what they want, coming here and disagreeing like they don't. Think they are cool or something. So you are playing with Mob Mentality, Not the Face, Pain Tolerance, Ticked Off etc. without re-rolling when you have them and expect us to believe you eh?

Not the face is the only one of those I'd bother rerolling on M10, but I'll also reiterate the issue is not the reroll mechanic, and manual selection is just hiding one problem with another.

[CitizenX3639]

Yea, it should have been hard locked once you started a playthrough to unlock other tiers. Its more of a cheat mode than anything. The game needed 1-2 addtional modes for difficulty and his would have been a nice for end game.