A thorough look at questionable changes

[ceegersmello]

Rather than hijack the bug thread with a huge comment, I thought I’d make my own thread with my thoughts. This is part making bug reports and part pointing out questionable changes, kinda stretching into opinion-review territory.

I played this game long ago and loved it, and then in the past year I decided to play through the whole thing again, all 625 zoombinis, and make a note of a lot of details (just because sometimes that’s what I do). I was so happy when I then discovered it was being remade! It's a great game, no doubt, but there are some things that rather confuse me about this new version. Overall it feels more like a beta version than a finished copy. I thought I’d go through and mention the changes I like and dislike in hopes that the makers might be able to adjust things and make it even better!

Overall thoughts

or comments that apply to multiple levels:

• There are options for what quality of graphics you want, but having tried both fastest and fantastic… I don’t notice any difference whatsoever. Has anybody else tried this?
  
• I totally understand wanting to change the graphics and make them better, but it sometimes feels like this was done unequally, such that some parts look like they really don’t go with other parts.
  
• Level hints. This has been mentioned by many others, but it is indeed somewhat confusing why these are totally gone. I mean, to be honest, I never used them when I was a kid (probably never even knew they were there), but it also took me forever to understand certain things. I suppose I can see wanting to keep it more difficult, but then why are the question marks there at all? Also, these days anybody who wants to know how to do a level can find it online anyway, so it’s not like you’re really preventing anything, just making it more inconvenient for no good reason.
  
• Zoombini traveling. Many people have mentioned missing the sounds, which I do as well. What I haven’t seen anybody mention is the animations themselves. Quite honestly it seems like the makers were just being lazy. The most obvious error is that when a spring guy lands, he should not continue to move forward until he jumps again! There is no variety in the horizontal zoombini movement… and there was 20 years ago, so there’s not really a good excuse for it. The zoombinis should look like they’re actually moving the way they would, not just floating along. I should note that occasionally this is a little more accurate, such as springs crossing the bridges in the first level do stop when they’re on the ground, however this still does not look as real as it did in the first game.
  
• Kinda part of the last point. There are certain times where the zoombinis move unusually slowly, such as after they are knocked down in stone cold caves and moving to a safer spot. Also, at least in this case, they don’t move until after the rock is finished talking, whereas it used to be right after they recovered. Unnecessary time wasting.
  
• Clicking to skip ahead. This still works when it’s showing the map path with the narrator talking, but no longer works after pressing the forward button before reaching the mentioned screen. Actually, I just discovered this is a thing, but you have to click on the arrow again, rather than anywhere on the screen like it used to be. Ok, I’m alright with that.
  
• No taking back a zoombini placement. This is quite annoying. I will usually place a zoombini before the previous is done, and then if the previous is sent backwards, the old version always gave you that animation/recovery time to move the zoombini off of the spot again. No such luck now; your zoombinis are forced to go! This is the kind of thing that makes the user really frustrated, but should be super easy to fix.
  
• Zoombini landing sounds. You know, when a zoombini gets hit somewhere and lands? It always used to make a cute zoombini noise and a thud. Why does this, in most places, not happen?
  
• Zoombini cheering. This used to be largely random single cheers, or maybe a few in a row. It was not generally all at once (debatable whether it’s good or bad), and never used to interfere with other talking.
  
• Graphic layering. There are a number of spots where something will appear in front of something else when it should not, logically.

The Map: I’m super glad to have auto-save and not have to choose it all the time. I’m pretty happy with the new map, except that it no longer lets you know when you’re hovering over a clickable icon. The little highlighting outline was a nice interactive element, and let you know what you can and can’t click on (for example, clicking on the banner with a zoombini number over an icon doesn’t work… but this is not clear now since it doesn’t highlight or anything when you Are over the right area).

The Big, The Bad, and The Hungry

Zoombini Isle: This is a case where it’s particularly weird how little there is in the question mark box. The dice are easy enough to try out and see what they do… but if you haven’t played the old one, it seems fairly unlikely that you will know that you can “undo” the creation of a zoombini by dragging them back to the cave. Why no explanations? Also, the clicking areas for zoombini features is off. My mouse can be on the right side of a feature, but still undoubtedly inside the feature, and it selects the feature to the right of it instead! Oh, and when the leading zoombini climbs up onto the ship, why is the ship moving up and down and the zoombini NOT?

Allergic Cliffs: Why does the first peg not have a hole in the ground once removed? And then there’s a little trick that probably not everybody realized that applied to the old game. In harder difficulties, it would nearly always (at least all the times I was keeping track for, which was a lot) have 8 on one side and 8 on the other, which gave the user an additional strategy for figuring out who goes on what side. It is no longer this way… debatable which way is better. Also, it used to be logically first placed, first sent, as it continues to be in Stone Cold Caves. Now, if you have zoombinis placed at both bridges before the previous finished crossing, it will send the top before the bottom, even if you placed the bottom first.

Stone Cold Caves: Overlapping voices. I don’t understand at all why this was left that way. This includes zoombini cheering sometimes covering up their statements. Also, the sound when a zoombini gets knocked back down plays too long, especially when they’re on a short path. It used to end when the zoombini oof sound played (which of course, you got rid of) when it reached the bottom, logically. A fun little quirk which was in the old game and not this version is if you would send the same zoombini the same wrong left/right way multiple times, the guy would eventually be like, "psst, try the other side", or something similar. It was clever to have something specific for multiple of the same failure. Not sure why that was removed. And then like the last level, there’s a secret balance thing that was in the old game and not in this one. Later difficulties used to spread the zoombinis out so it was 4-4-4-4 if you had all 16. This was an extra strategy for those who realized it, though I would say made it arguably too easy (probably the easiest in the game because you have lots of error allowance), so I’m ok with that particular change.

Pizza Pass: I think this is a good example of new/old graphics clashing, though it might just be the pizza movement was not very well done. In any case, there’s also a graphic layering issue. And not sure why the pizzas come down onto the troll’s rocks using curved paths that defy gravity. There used to be no universal dislikes when all three trolls are in, but now there is if you’re only on difficulty 3 (not necessarily good or bad). This is also another case of cleverness being removed - the trolls used to have certain sayings they would say for one bad topping vs multiple bad toppings, for example, Arno’s “EWWWWW YUCK!” and Willa’s “Some of those toppings are diiistasteful!” only happened when you gave them multiple toppings they didn’t like. Now they’ll just say whatever whenever. There was also a sort of general progression that seems to no longer be there. Additionally, there are certain comments they would say if you gave them another of a pizza you already tried. Currently they say these comments when you repeat a pizza they like (but incomplete), but not when you repeat one they don’t like. Seeing as some of these comments are along the lines of “… still don’t like it”, this is a bit backwards from what it should be. Additionally, this case used to only make one troll comment on it if there are multiple left, saving time that is now unnecessarily taken. Also another case of zoombini cheering covering up something - in this case, troll eating comments (though the trolls themselves eat simultaneously, which I think is fine). Also Willa takes a long time to finish eating (I think she starts later?).

Who’s Bayou

Capt’n Cajun’s Ferryboat: Seems fine to me so far.

Titanic Tattooed Toads: What is the deal with these frogs? They used to actually, you know, hop… now you see some sort of weird leg movement while they just slide quickly to the next lilypad. I’m also a bit disappointed at how the post-crossing frog action has been sped up and downplayed (as opposed to the general crossing, which seems as slow as always). The fun frog jumps to get back to the other side were what broke up the monotony of waiting for them to get all the way across. Also, what happened to the smart frog logic? In the old version, the frogs and crabs would always take a quickest path to get to the other side unless they were blocked. Now you’ll have them try one direction, find a dead end, and need to back up and try another path, despite having a clear path. And then the crabs - they’re not supposed to go backwards along their path! The main thing that makes the crab difficulties harder is that if a crab path is blocked, it just sits there, blocking your frogs from getting across until you adjust things. In this new version, you don’t really have to worry about that, because the crab will just back up again, giving you time to cross. Also, sometimes when the crabs move sideways (or reach the end), their back image gets glitchy. The obvious difference for the wand is that instead of holding it, the screen just gets pink-purple. This gives a couple improvements in that you can cancel a switch if you click a pad you don’t want to switch by clicking on the wand again, and you now have a magic meter in a sense, though I could see this also causing some confusion as to what is going on (holding a wand is much more intuitive than the screen changing color, even with the intro doing that). Unfortunately, the magic meter doesn’t seem to even work, as you can go past the point of running out, and it will continue to work (and have a red streak out of the bottom of the wand). Looks like they even tried to make very very hard actually have fewer switches available, but no dice if it doesn’t work. And why no narrator comment at the end? I’ve also now got crabs glitching and getting stuck for no reason. Also also, the crabs used to stop appearing once you started your final frog crossing, which isn’t a big deal, but made it more of a nice finish.

Stone Rise: As people have mentioned, the zoombini placement sometimes goes to a lower stone than expected, and also sometimes zoombinis get stuck when trying to change what tile they’re standing on. I’m also noticing that on the harder difficulties, if a zoombini could match from multiple directions, if the one on the left is matched, but not the one on the right, it won’t light up. On the other hand, matching from the right and not the left, it will light up. It ought to light up either way, but even if you were to be mean to require ALL connections, you need to be consistent about it, not direction-dependent. See here[scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net] and here[scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net], where the yellow noses top left Should match in both cases. Also, just a teensy bit disappointed that the secret Psychedelic Mode’s no longer in there hehe.

See comment below for the rest.

[ceegersmello]

Deep, Dark Forest

Fleens!: The little zoombini intro bit where they see the fleens and say something to the rest of the group doesn’t really work the same as it used to. I think it’s a timing thing, doing it too slowly, not like he’s actually scared or whatever. I like the little extra things where a fleen looks up at the zoombini on the branch, and that the branch zoombinis jump when a fleen jumps off the other branch. But no whack when a zoombini falls off, or chasing sounds when the fleen chases that zoombini off the screen? More graphic layering issues on this one, with the final fleen appearing to go behind the others but displaying in front. Other people have issues with the end of this level. Mine has issues, but not the same as they’ve mentioned. Mine continues the music while the zoombinis cheer and the narrator talks all at the same time. And then the music either never stops until I press the go button or stops at some random later point. Used to be the bees would make a noise that would cut off the music. Now apparently nothing is? At least mine lets me move on. And then there’s the new very very hard. As noted in another thread, this has changed such that one feature doesn’t correspond at all. I personally think this is a good change, because previously very hard and very very hard were barely different at all. It’s just odd that this is almost the only change to how a puzzle actually words.

Hotel Dimensia: So, in wide screen resolutions, the far right and left sides don’t get darker when you mess up like the rest of the screen does. Selecting a zoombini already inside a room is a little odd. I understand not being able to change where it is, but why is it selected when you release the click, and then it floats for a short bit and randomly goes back down? And then on very very hard… I’ve jotted down that nobody talks when you win in the old game, but I’m sure Something must have happened. It certainly didn’t just have the music go silent. Maybe the zoombinis just started cheering? Odd that for once they aren’t here hehe. And then of course once you know what you’re doing, very hard is harder than very very hard, but that was that way in the original as well.

Mudball Wall: The mud-holder fills up rather jerkily. Another case of the slow zoombinis. And yet they’re suddenly super fast when they’re hopping up to the seesaw platforms? Oh, and what about the worried sound they used to make as they climbed onto the platforms? Also there’s some button pushing that seems just a tiny bit off of the actual boundaries, although probably close enough. Minor note that if only some zoombinis are bounced up, it goes right to left, as opposed to the old way which was left to right. Not really good or bad… just different. On Oh So Hard, the shifting goes by one, rather than the old version by two. This makes it easier to follow… could be good or bad or neither depending on what you want. Also not necessarily a bad change: you used to be able to keep flinging mudballs after everyone was up, but can’t anymore. Lastly, very very hard used to increase the number of mudballs (with a full zoombini set) to 17, whereas it stays at 16 here. I actually just discovered a bug here. I noticed that unlike the usual situation where you can’t throw a mudball until zoombinis are ready, you CAN at the very beginning. The zoombinis will just barely make it in time to get thrown, but I noticed you can get a second shot off as well! If you get lucky enough to make both of these first two shots, you can glitch the game out of getting some that should have been saved, and no longer be able to get all of your zoombinis over the wall.

Mountains of Despair

Lion’s Lair: I actually really like the new lion, and how it rolls the big rock away when it lifts its paw! Also, the new feature display makes it much clearer what position the features are in when only a couple are displayed. I kinda miss them being thrown up from below when they fall in the pit, but I guess above’s okay. Miss the thud too as usual. But no real complaints here.

Mirror Machine: Not sure why it happens, but clearly many of us are having issues selecting the top row of guys. Actually it’s not always top row for me, though that might be more common. For me it always eventually works, just might take a long time. I very much approve of the way it shows the zoombini’s image projecting onto the initial crystal piece. I also like the light shining on the lever, though I think perhaps making the blinking and sound that occurs to tell you to un-flip the lever slower was a bad idea. I am glad you can un-flip it before the zoombini stops moving though - this level was always super tedious, so anything to make it shorter. Kinda odd that the cart only makes track noise for the first part, then becomes silent. It’s interesting (not good or bad) that on not so easy, it comes up with two possible crystal-zoombini combos at a time, and then waits for two to be used before switching them all. On the other hand, oh so hard keeping the setup the same until there are no more matches? I think that’s a bad thing, as it means you don’t really have to think after you’ve figured out what’s important. On very very hard, the turntable is a little odd, with the relative placement of the two starter crystals on it changing as it rotates. Not affecting anything, just less realistic. I don’t know that making it turn slower was necessary though, especially when you un-flip the lever. I’m also pondering on how the upper difficulties don’t let you flip the lever if you haven’t put any crystal piece down… I seem to recall occasionally not needing to put crystal pieces down in the old game, but I’m not sure and haven’t confirmed here. Oh, and of course HUGE thank you for making the two-wheel feet actually look like two-wheel feet on the crystal pieces. Why no narrator ending comment?

Bubblewonder Abyss: I really like how the red grid shows up. The biggest issue here is that sometimes it creates impossible situations, where you cannot possibly get everyone across. This was never an issue in the old game. I’m personally undecided on the collision loss issue, as this was the way it was in the old game. It makes sense, but is admittedly frustrating at times. However, there is a situation where two bubbled zoombinis can run into each other while on top of the ending platform, and disappear, even though their bubbles are about to pop anyway (see here[scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net], here[scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net], and here[scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net]). This definitely shouldn’t happen. This is particularly crazy since there are situations where the bubble reaches the ending platform, pops, and the zoombini lands such that it doesn’t even look like they’re on the platform, and yet they’re fine. And then there are the sticky panels (on very very hard). In the old game, the bubble would look like it was trying to continue, but never be able to. This new version may look cleaner, but the old way has a very significant use: it lets you know which direction the bubble will go if the appropriate switch is hit. As is in the new version, you can’t tell, and this is a pretty important thing to know sometimes. Also, I believe practice always used to alternate between the two setup options for each difficulty, whereas now you might get two of one setup in a row.

Path to Zoombiniville:

Really guys? Could you have made the lettering on that sign any less real-looking? This is slightly true in zoombiniville itself too, but is especially noticeable here. In the original game it looked like it was carved into the sign… who in the world decided to use a generic computer font and just plop it on the sign?

That’s a nice last comment to summarize my impression of how this game just feels unfinished. Do understand that I still love the puzzles in this game, but I really want this to be a complete package!

[dislesuk]

Couldn't agree more! I wish I had an old computer to play my Broderbund version on.

[telyni]

I agree with all of this. This is a very comprehensive look at the changes and the ways the remake could still be improved.

One additional comment on the Mirror Machine stage: in the original, I remember being very amused at the way the Zoombinis would scream a little as they flew over the gap. In the remake, they don't make any noise anymore. I am quite disappointed at this.

[celia9059]

Originally posted by dislesuk:

Couldn't agree more! I wish I had an old computer to play my Broderbund version on.

I'm right there with you :[

[MrAgility888]

I agree with just about everything in this post. While the puzzle are still (mostly) faithful to the original, there are some questionable aspects of the game. I'm so confused as to why they completely got rid of the hint system for each stage. I haven't played this game in a while and would like to know the specifics of each stage on each difficulty. Additionally, it always bothers me when I see a zoombini in the backround appear over something in the foreground because the layering is not done properly. All the complaints I have about this game are minor but add up, making me believe there should have been a little more time put into this game.

[Troubletcat]

This is an excellent thread. I hope this stuff gets patched, although I must admit I'm not holding my breath.

It's made this re-release of this wonderful game a little disappointing for me.

[Typi the Golden-eyed]

Originally posted by ceegersmello:

• Zoombini traveling. Many people have mentioned missing the sounds, which I do as well. What I haven’t seen anybody mention is the animations themselves. Quite honestly it seems like the makers were just being lazy. The most obvious error is that when a spring guy lands, he should not continue to move forward until he jumps again! There is no variety in the horizontal zoombini movement… and there was 20 years ago, so there’s not really a good excuse for it.

Wait a second...
Maybe, just maybe, the devs didn't add the movement sounds because they would be asynchronous with the new movement animations...?
Hm...this is by far the best as well the only reason I can think of by now.
Anyhow it would still be a ridiculous reason - honestly, if I could I would immediately dismiss the person, who thought it would be any good to not add the movement sounds. Sadly I can't.
Just: "What were they thinking?" ~ AVGN.

A pretty good and astonishing comprehensive look over the differences.
I'm surprised, that you didn't cover the two camps. Okay, they're not part of the gameplay, but they made some cuts on some animations.
Overall I guess you're right. The game has a trace of conspicuously consistent laziness in itself. Even if the result is quite enjoyable to play.

[Patashu]

A minor thing that sometimes happens is another graphics problem, where the features of a zoombini covers some of the features of a zoombini behind it. For example, in allergic cliffs, if you send a pony-tailed zoombini across the lower bridge, then send another zoombini across the same bridge, the nose colour of that zoombini will be obscured and you can't move the zoombinis that make it across. This is bad, because we need to see those features to figure out discrimination patterns.

Perhaps a "number display mode"?.. It shows number boxes for the number of remaining 'mistakes/tries/uses' you have for any given thing, especially useful when something might be unclear, such as the number of mud balls remaining, or the number of lilly pad switches remaining, since they use a meter of some kind. It could also be used for 'invisible numbers' like the number of times an incorrect pizza can be delivered before the trolls begin to kick zoombinis away, especially nice for those who aren't familiar with those puzzles.

While it has already been mentioned, the thing I want to see the most, are basic hints for each puzzle of each level. It's especially annoying with puzzles that change in strange ways when transitioning to the next difficulty, something that would catch a new player completely off-guard, like; very, very hard mudball wall has a weird offset compared to the next difficulty down.

There are some puzzle tweaks that I like and I think they should do more. For example: very hard and very, very hard fleens could be distinguished further by making very very hard's 'attempts' branch shorter, since it's possible to do it without using more than three Zoombinis, seemingly consistently from my experience. The hotel on very hard could be made easier, since it's actually harder than very, very hard if you have like, 8 blocked off rooms and a very evenly distributed team, it should only block off a few rooms every time. The ferry boat on very, very hard should have an 'exceptions counter' based on the number of 'outliers' you have. If you have a team of zoombinis using the first four columns of every category row, except for 1 zoombini who uses the last column which no other zoombini uses, it won't be solvable, unless he allows exceptions to be made, to which he would have to ignore either 1 zoombini, 2 mismatches (placing said zoombini in a corner) or 8 mismatching traits (in a corner, not matching either of the four features of the two adjacent zoombinis).

[KulaRose]

Excellent post! I really hope the devs read through it!