Pizza Pass [Very Very Hard] without losing a Zoombini?

[Hatefiend]

I've looked at every faq and video for this game (including the 1996 faq's and videos) and none of them address a proper strategy for Pizza Pass on Very Very Hard.

From the main FAQ there's this strategy:

Originally posted by NAN:

"Very Very Hard:
3 trolls, 8 possible toppings. There are 4 pizzas in the pit to begin with. Here's a strategy for times like this. The bin would look like:
TOPPINGS 1&4
TOPPINGS 1&3
TOPPINGS 2&3
TOPPINGS 2&4

Make a pizza using toppings 3 AND 4, NOT 1 and 2. One of the trolls likes both of these. This is a useful starting point which just saves you a Zoombini. Try to make one Troll's Pizza and Ice Cream first before moving on to the next."

^^^ That strategy *DOES NOT WORK*.


For example, this puzzle.[i.imgur.com]

We see from that image that Mushrooms and Pineapples never go on the same pizza together.
Also, Cheese and Chocolate are never found on the same pizza either. The game mechanics basically work that ONE of these two combinations are **guaranteed** to be liked by *one* of the trolls. This means you can eliminate one troll really really quickly and from there the puzzle becomes trivial.

There's two combinations and only one that works. That means you have to risk a guess. That strategy does not work whatsoever.



The strategy I use but has the potential to lose one Zoombini is to brute force. Try each ingredient starting with three of the four provided on the four pizzas that are provided. For each pizza that you try with one ingredient, write down the reactions of the trolls. Based on the image I provided above, let's say one troll likes pineapples when you give it to him. Well the thing is he rejected a pizza in the pit that had pineapples and cheese on it. That must mean he hates cheese. Same thing with the pizza that has chocolate and pineapples on it. That must mean he hates chocolate. Bam now we have 3 of the 8 possible things that troll hates from one guess! This however doesn't complete the puzzle in time in certain circumstances and you lose one zoombini.




FINALLY, there's another strategy on the wiki that is just awful.
Link to that Wiki[zoombinis.wikia.com]

Originally posted by NAN:

When Arno is the only troll, the easiest thing to do is to start with a blank pizza (every now and then, that is what someone wants). If he rejects that, add the first topping. If he likes that topping, keep it on the next pizza and add another topping, but if he doesn't like it, obviously go straight to the second topping. Continue in this manner until Arno is pleased.

When the second troll Willa joins in, it becomes useful to know that only one troll will want each topping, and every topping will be wanted by one troll. This way, you can produce a pizza to please one of the trolls, then use all the other toppings to produce the other pizza.

When Shyler, who is very shy joins in, the method is similar: Produce a pizza for one troll with the one-troll method detailed above. Once this has been done, use the remaining toppings that were not on the first (successful) pizza and perform the process again. Then, use all of the toppings that are left to satisfy the last of the trolls.

^ That does not work at all for very very hard difficulty. You're going to eliminate one troll, yes, but at the cost of like ~5 pizza guesses. Meanwhile, because you're adding ingredients as you go, the two other trolls who you are not trying to appease will reject the pizza because you've kept on the same ingredients over and over that they said they hated.


TLDR: Does anyone have a surefire method to beating this puzzle everytime without losing Zoombinis? Please go into detail.

[Salmon Jones The Magnificent]

On the highest difficulty, every single topping will be used. You will never, or at least having beaten the whole game I have never, encountered an instance of all of the eight toppings not being wanted by someone. I also have never seen in the entire time it took me to get every single zoombini across, an instance of anyone wanting just a blank pizza.

You get I believe seven tries before you lose a zoombini.

Remember, the pizzas that are pre-made on the bottom are the ones that were rejected. They throw a pizza where they stand if there's something on it they like.

It's pretty much always a bad idea to test multiple toppings at the same time. When you test one topping, one of them will *always* say they want whichever topping you pick, the rest won't.

On lower difficulties when you have fewer variables, the best method is simply test every topping independantly and make a note of who wants what, then just add all the toppings you *know* they want together and boom, there you go.

On the hardest, however, you have one fewer attempt than you have toppings to pick.

So, just use the pizzas that were already made to use process of elimination to figure out who *doesn't* want a topping.

Also, note, when a troll accepts your pizza, it does not count as one of your seven turns.

For instance: If you make a cheese pizza, and Arno says he wants more toppings, the other two will not want cheese every single time. Same goes for ice cream toppings, if one of them wants a cherry, the other two will never want a cherry.

It IS possible for them to only want ice cream toppings and nothing on the pizza, however. I do not believe it's possible for them to want nothing on the pizza AND nothing on the ice cream. At least, I've never once seen it.

You will never, ever use the same topping twice (successfully).

It's far easier to show somebody than it is to tell them, but it actually is one of the easier puzzles in the game on very very hard because it's just process of elimination. Find what they like one at a time, then cross reference what's pre-made in the reject pile at the bottom to find out who has to like what.

For instance, Arno likes, say, pepperoni. You have a premade reject that has pepperoni and chocolate on it. You now know for a fact that Arno doesn't like chocolate and it's pointless to test chocolate on him. If you have a pre-made one that also has, say, cheese and chocolate on it, and Shyler like cheese, the chocolate ingredient HAS to go to Willobee.

Again, this long rambling 2 AM explanation probably isn't super easy to follow, if you want specifics ask away. This really is probably the least luck-dependant puzzle on here. I can do it pretty much every time without losing anybody unless I do something stupid and make a mistake or have a brainfart or something.

Now, the whispering cliffs on very hard, that one I can't seem to wrap my head around for the life of me. So it goes.

[Salmon Jones The Magnificent]

Also, remember, you only actually have to eliminate one possibility to make the puzzle trivially easy. There are eight options (cheese, pepperoni, mushrooms, peppers, pineapple, cherry, sprinkles, chocolate). You get seven turns, though they'll kick you on the sixth.

If you just test them one at a time noting who wants what, eventually you'll be able to logic it out. Sometimes during testing you'll find that one of the three trolls only wants one single topping which makes it even easier.

Once you figure out who likes what, you can cross-reference it with the reject pile. Once you've eliminated one topping you're pretty much good, just test the rest to find out who wants what and combine all the ones they want. Again, it will *not* count against you if, say, Arno and Willowbee don't like the pizza and Shyler does, that's not a strike (it will also always happen, as again, their interests will never overlap).

[Salmon Jones The Magnificent]

I guess I should specify, Arno and Willowbee don't like the pizza and Shyler does, which makes him take the pizza and go eat it, THAT will not count as one of your seven strikes. But again, you'll never have all three disliking an option. Only three things will happen, they'll either want more toppings in which case you know the troll that said that is the only troll that wants that topping. They'll say "yuck" or some variation in which case you know that they will never like that particular topping, or they'll just take the pizza and go eat it on their stoop.

As long as you test the toppings one at a time, that is. If you do more than that, there isn't really any good way to figure out which of the toppings on it they're talking about disliking, which *can* make two trolls express that they like/don't like it. If you test toppings one at a time, you'l only ever have one troll have anything to say positive about it.

[Hatefiend]

Originally posted by Orsonposter:

If you make a cheese pizza, and Arno says he wants more toppings, the other two will not want cheese every single time

Well that changes everything then. It's not really random in that case. WTF? That makes the puzzle so trivial if the second you know arno likes X, that the other two hate X. I basically didn't know you can cheese the puzzle like that. I wish it was more random where Arno could like all 8 toppings, the other trolls could want none, or all as well. It would make it more challenging. I should have stated that I wasn't a beginner because a lot of your explanation regretably I knew. What I didn't know was that there was a defined pattern or rule structure to the solutions that they wanted.

[Ekimmak]

Well, it's a logic game. Of course you can cheese it with logic.

I remember on the original version I played (so I don't know if it applies here), it was the same combination of rejected pizza toppings each time.

[Ekimmak]

Ok, just jumping back in on this:

Between the four pizzas in the pit, there will be two combinations that haven't been tried yet.

Try them both. One combo will be accepted by a troll, and one will be rejected. Then, cycle through the unused toppings.

You should be left with one attempt left, so you can make a pizza with just one rejected topping. The other topping will be liked by the other troll, so you can determine their perfect pizzas.