Canthar

[furbleburble]

"No. No catch. You will merely owe me a favor."

"Please explain to me how that is not a catch."

I want to buy the frying pan for the lady and then bash this guy's skull in with it.

[Oneeyed]

Why? This is not about the pan but about a piece of paper to get into town.

Nobody forces you to take that piece of paper. You can simply tell him "Not interested".

So why your sudden wish to kill someone just because he makes you an offer?

In Life you make deals. Of course you are bound to fullfill your side of the deal or dont make it.

There was something like merchant's honor back in the day. Respectable businessmen wer bound by it and if you dont no other respectable businessman would have made deals with you any more. A word of honour still has meaning in large parts of the world.

So if you give that word of honour you are bound by it and if you break it you suffer the consequences. Even today I dont make business deals with peoople who break their word of honour in business deals. Means if someone breaks a oral contract I will never ever deal with that person again and I will tell all my business contacts and warn them about that person.

[furbleburble]

This thread is about Canthar. I'm not sure what honor has to do with anything. He's shady. Shady people are not honorable. Shady and honor do not go together. As to the stuff about "merchant's honor," the appearance of honor was often more important than actual honor, and often still is (Note the use of "often" as opposed to, say, "always"). Canthar is a man who uses his position to do shady business. This is evidenced by his treatment of the Hero as well as Sarah, if you allow the game to move in that direction. Let's not pretend he's innocent.

Btw, this isn't my first time playing the game. I've completed it, NotR and vanilla, multiple times over the last ~20 years. I'm not as familiar with certain things as others might be, but I do have some working knowledge of the game.

I'm not sure how my tone comes off here. My intent is civility.

Edit: None of this is to say he's deserving of murder, so far as I know. The desire to bash in someone's skull and actually doing so are two different things.

[Oneeyed]

Hahahah! Sorry "bash his skull" sounded to me like murder.

For me its about honor. He offered that piece of paper so you can get into town. If you take it then you out yourself as criminal. Because you break the law if you enter the town with it.

So its not him alone who is shady if you accept his offer.

In addition you can just say "No, not interested" and then none of the Canthar shenenigans in the town happen.

So I dont get what makes you so mad.

For me if I accept an offer and give my word then its binding. In a business deal its even more serious because you got a product or service for your word of honor. So you have to pay or in my eyes you are even worse then Canthar ^^. Sorry I'm in business myself and do oral contracts a lot and they are binding. No matter with whom.

[rustyOkin]

For me Canthar is one of the reasons why Gothic 2 is one of the greatest games of all time!

Over the last 20 years I approached this quest in every way possible. Sending him to prison, sending Sarah to prison, ignoring him, killing him...
To this day I still don't know what to do, even though I know the outcome. The lasting consequences make Canthar an amazing character, wether you like him or not (probably not lol). The fact that the game hits you with a quest like this right at the start makes it even more fascinating, even though you realize its impact later in the game.

But yeah, I kinda understand why you would want to bash his head in :)

[furbleburble]

@Oneeyed

This is part of why I started this conversation. I wanted to see what others have to say. I never considered the point, "If you take it then you out yourself as criminal." Whether it's true from the game or not, it's an interesting take and I like it. The problem, however, is that Canthar speaks as though it's a legitimate document and you really have no reason to think otherwise, except that he comes off as shady with. "No. No catch. You will merely owe me a favor," but that's not actually evidence that the document is not legitimate. Owing a favor is a catch. Btw, I've found plenty of posts on other forums with people discussing how you can murder him and get away with it. That's not my thing. I don't even murder Mud.

@Rusty

I agree. I don't have to like a character to like the character.

[Doomerang]

He's an absolute slimeball and teaches you a good real life lesson. If a deal is too good to be true, then chances it is. I was young and naive 15 years ago with Canthar, now I see thing's differently and that is most interesting now that I'm more world weary.

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by furbleburble:

@Oneeyed

This is part of why I started this conversation. I wanted to see what others have to say. I never considered the point, "If you take it then you out yourself as criminal." Whether it's true from the game or not, it's an interesting take and I like it. The problem, however, is that Canthar speaks as though it's a legitimate document and you really have no reason to think otherwise, except that he comes off as shady with. "No. No catch. You will merely owe me a favor," but that's not actually evidence that the document is not legitimate. Owing a favor is a catch. Btw, I've found plenty of posts on other forums with people discussing how you can murder him and get away with it. That's not my thing. I don't even murder Mud.

@Rusty

I agree. I don't have to like a character to like the character.

Well the hero is already a criminal at the start of the game since he is a convict who broke out of a prison.

And yes Canthar says its his pass and of course the pass itself is legitmate but not you using it. If someone gives you his corporate ID card it doesnt mean you are allowed onto corporate ground ^^.

But of course I played all the possible scenarios:

- Take the pass, do his favor, everything ok
- take the pass, deny his favor, take the hit
- take the pass, rat him out, take the hit
- take the pass, never meet him in town
- deny the pass
- and of course I killed him during the quest

Normally I just take the pass, then rat him out, take the hit, kill him aftwards, everthing good ^^

BTW you can get a free pan at a different location so you dont even need to talk to him at all in the beginning. ^^

[furbleburble]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

BTW you can get a free pan at a different location so you dont even need to talk to him at all in the beginning. ^^

I did not know that. Interesting. Where is it found?

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by furbleburble:

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

BTW you can get a free pan at a different location so you dont even need to talk to him at all in the beginning. ^^

I did not know that. Interesting. Where is it found?

You can find it under the bridge where the molerats are. Its the bridge where the 5 bandits above on the bridge and under it is a little cave and a destroyed cart. Its between the town and the tavern.

[furbleburble]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Originally posted by furbleburble:

I did not know that. Interesting. Where is it found?

You can find it under the bridge where the molerats are. Its the bridge where the 5 bandits above on the bridge and under it is a little cave and a destroyed cart. Its between the town and the tavern.

Wow, that's out of the way. I thought you meant somewhere relatively nearby. Thank you, though.

[Celeb]

Originally posted by furbleburble:

"No. No catch. You will merely owe me a favor."

"Please explain to me how that is not a catch."

I want to buy the frying pan for the lady and then bash this guy's skull in with it.

This guy is the worst person in the history of gaming. I was thinking about games and other forms of media for the past several months and nothing comes close to Canthar and his attitude when it comes to antagonists. If people could be mixed with snakes to create vicious chimeras, Canthar would be just that. I have never met a member of society, in fantasy setting or not, who would present behaviour so appaling, so dreadful, so abysmal that the mere notion of interacting with him would make me want to regret choices in my life. This guy just comes to the town and casually tries to use someone to destroy the life of an innocent woman. Canthar is a coward, a man... NO... a boy who can't even do a shady job himself. All he can do is threaten less fortunate people who come from mountains to do his bidding. The player is left with no choice but to send him to jail so Canthar actively makes Gothic 2(tm) worse because he makes one quest more linear and thus less interesting. One could say "hey, at least you are done with the guy after that" but I say NO. That viper comes back later and demands money for some absurd reason. How come this treasonous bandit have connections with proper human beings? What's more, he is able to coerce these innocent people into believing that, somehow, we are to blame in Khorinis. This actively makes Gothic 2(tm) worse because the world becomes less believable and thus less interesting. Piranha Bytes must have noticed this mistake of a piece of coding because they did not dare to touch it when introducing The Night of The Raven expansion. If they had changed or added something to Canthar, they would have admitted they cared about him and I imagine it must have been a pretty horrendous thought. Bottom line, do not spend your precious time left on this Earth thinking about this piece of garbage because nothing good will come of it.

[misterbill5]

I took his pass and then accepted the forged letter, but instead of planting it on her I turned him in to the Militia. Problem solved I thought when he ended up in jail, but later he ends up back out on the street and has trashed my reputation with the Merchants. If I kill him, does this allow them to speak to me again??? That is a lot better than giving him 500 gold!

[Aluvian Darkstar]

Originally posted by misterbill5:

I took his pass and then accepted the forged letter, but instead of planting it on her I turned him in to the Militia. Problem solved I thought when he ended up in jail, but later he ends up back out on the street and has trashed my reputation with the Merchants. If I kill him, does this allow them to speak to me again??? That is a lot better than giving him 500 gold!

Don't think it'll do anything, but you could save, try killing him, reload back if it doesn't work. Note that half Khorinis will turn against you if you try to kill him though. Not sure if there's a way to attack him without witnesses present.

I usually turn him to militia, then enter his cell and kill him there. But I think if you are mercenary they won't let you in until chapter 3

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by misterbill5:

I took his pass and then accepted the forged letter, but instead of planting it on her I turned him in to the Militia. Problem solved I thought when he ended up in jail, but later he ends up back out on the street and has trashed my reputation with the Merchants. If I kill him, does this allow them to speak to me again??? That is a lot better than giving him 500 gold!

Murder rarely does restore someone's reputation ^^

And as it should be if you just kill him then you have lost the way to get your reputation back ... at least for a while

I dont get it why people are so upset abut this quest at all

1. The hero is a convict from a prison

2. Canthar is offering something totally illegal (using someone else's pass is even illegal today)

3. Player agrees to get something illegal for a favor and then are upset the favor is actual something illegal, too.

But whatever I give you all a little tip:

Everything you give to a NPC stays in its inventory till the end of the game.

[misterbill5]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Originally posted by misterbill5:

I took his pass and then accepted the forged letter, but instead of planting it on her I turned him in to the Militia. Problem solved I thought when he ended up in jail, but later he ends up back out on the street and has trashed my reputation with the Merchants. If I kill him, does this allow them to speak to me again??? That is a lot better than giving him 500 gold!

Murder rarely does restore someone's reputation ^^

And as it should be if you just kill him then you have lost the way to get your reputation back ... at least for a while

I dont get it why people are so upset abut this quest at all

1. The hero is a convict from a prison

2. Canthar is offering something totally illegal (using someone else's pass is even illegal today)

3. Player agrees to get something illegal for a favor and then are upset the favor is actual something illegal, too.

But whatever I give you all a little tip:

Everything you give to a NPC stays in its inventory till the end of the game.

I didn't think the pass was "illegal" at the time I accepted it, but in hindsight I think I would look for another way to enter the city. Having all the merchants refuse to do business or even speak to you is quite inconvenient. Having said that, even if it was a fake ID, there are different degrees of illegality IMO. Using a fake ID seems to me to be more in the category of a misdemeanor, while planting evidence that leads to someone losing their means of support and spending time in jail is much more serious--that is why I refused to do it...