When to start Night of the Raven?

[Siquale]

I don't understand when it's worth taking on this addition? Should it be completed parallel to the main walkthrough or after?

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Cortes:

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

It is better designed and tuned for low level and low gear than Jakendar.

No, just no.

It is absolutely mind boggling how ANYONE can think that first visit in the valley of mines should come BEFORE Jharkendar.
This game is supposed to be played the other way around, the enemies in the jharkendar make this absolutely clear.

Enemies you have to face in in valley are easier than those in Jakendar. It is basically just wolves, bloodflies and few snappers and mine crawlers

You dont have to nor should face orcs and wargs and those easy enemies that navigate your paths like wolves and bloodflies make naturally the right path around ch2 objectives.

I do not see why G1 should be so necessary for it - even chapter 1 in Gothic 2 is build with same philosophy and if player go off dedicated locations and paths he finds more powerful enemies that soon recognize as natural barrier (including wargs and orcs) that kill player easily (though arguably even level 1 char with stick can defeat any non magic enemy if player get the right combat pattern)

As was already said here going Jakhendar first is by immersion, and progress "wrong" path that result come overpowered into valley and fight everything alive which should come naturally no sooner than in ch4.

Also imho even if you are veteran you are just shooting to your own leg with going Jakhendar before valley cus valley is in fact so easy and short you can quickly progress to ch3 for way superior faction armor and come to Jakendar better equiped for faster and smoother progress to take out all undead, bandits, orcs and others you HAVE to fight here.

[Korhal]

Id say it depends:

If you approach the games logic, Id say doing Jharkendar is better AFTER visiting the Valley of Mines, as you cannot continue the main story.

If you rather prefer the more "gameplay"-wise approach, I personally prefer doing Jharkendar before the Valley of Mines, as it eases the pain there and meanwhile going through Jharkendar feels like a whole different experience. It is quite though to wander around there.

With that being said: No one stops you to "dip" your toes into Jharkendar and leaving it at whatever state you might be in and go into the Valley of Mines inbetween.

I dont think, there is a "right" decision, just a different based based on what your actual goal is.

If this is your first playthrough, Id say choose option one 1.

[[AK] GaroK]

Originally posted by Cortes:

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

It is better designed and tuned for low level and low gear than Jakendar.

No, just no.

It is absolutely mind boggling how ANYONE can think that first visit in the valley of mines should come BEFORE Jharkendar.
This game is supposed to be played the other way around, the enemies in the jharkendar make this absolutely clear.

Complete, hard disagree. This is not how the game is supposed to be played.

If you ever played Piranha Bytes game (X), you know the game first tries make you feel completely worthless before letting you actually wreak havoc.
I will repeat my point. In Chapter 2 VoM you are basically a ♥♥♥♥♥, underequipped postman in a literal warzone that has to carefully watch his steps, running from danger while only chasing away some pests on the way. This is (almost, explanation later), perfect and one of the most memorable moment in the Gothic series. It gives you a taste of what's to come while also letting you know it's too early to play a hero.

Doing Jarkendar first gives you Heavy Guard Armor from Gothic 1 (Not as strong but still very decent for the early chapter and badass looking), and the Claw of Beliar - literal god's weapon that requires no stats, can be actively improved, strucks the targets with damn lightning, even if the target blocks your attack. Besides the invincible dragons which are only killable after story progress, you can destroy everything on your way the first time you visit VoM. With some persistance, you can clear the whole siege around the castle.

The "From Zero to Hero" aspect is totally ruined, you are never zero, as you are already a hero the moment you first time arrive in there. What is there even to do when you proceed to Chapter 4? Only dragons, and maybe few snappers, wargs and one shadowbeast that respawn.


To be fair, I know the developers give you choice for a reason. Nobody can tell you how you want to play. Nothing is stopping you from breaking the game all you want. But the game and the story has a design that I think should at least be properly experienced the first time you play and apreciate what the developers tried to do.

And to be fair, the presence of Diego in the Valley undermines almost everything I just said, because he can slaughter a huge chunk of the enemies (though he will die if you feed him too much enemies at once and has limited healing potions, and a lot of areas he will refuse to go) while you get the EXP. Though first time players might not even find him, and if they do, there's still at least the psychological effect that you are so weak at this point in the story that you need to be protected and hand-hold by someone else.

[Oneeyed]

Originally posted by GaroK:

Originally posted by Cortes:

No, just no.

It is absolutely mind boggling how ANYONE can think that first visit in the valley of mines should come BEFORE Jharkendar.
This game is supposed to be played the other way around, the enemies in the jharkendar make this absolutely clear.

Complete, hard disagree. This is not how the game is supposed to be played.

If you ever played Piranha Bytes game (X), you know the game first tries make you feel completely worthless before letting you actually wreak havoc.
I will repeat my point. In Chapter 2 VoM you are basically a ♥♥♥♥♥, underequipped postman in a literal warzone that has to carefully watch his steps, running from danger while only chasing away some pests on the way. This is (almost, explanation later), perfect and one of the most memorable moment in the Gothic series. It gives you a taste of what's to come while also letting you know it's too early to play a hero.

Doing Jarkendar first gives you Heavy Guard Armor from Gothic 1 (Not as strong but still very decent for the early chapter and badass looking), and the Claw of Beliar - literal god's weapon that requires no stats, can be actively improved, strucks the targets with damn lightning, even if the target blocks your attack. Besides the invincible dragons which are only killable after story progress, you can destroy everything on your way the first time you visit VoM. With some persistance, you can clear the whole siege around the castle.

The "From Zero to Hero" aspect is totally ruined, you are never zero, as you are already a hero the moment you first time arrive in there. What is there even to do when you proceed to Chapter 4? Only dragons, and maybe few snappers, wargs and one shadowbeast that respawn.


To be fair, I know the developers give you choice for a reason. Nobody can tell you how you want to play. Nothing is stopping you from breaking the game all you want. But the game and the story has a design that I think should at least be properly experienced the first time you play and apreciate what the developers tried to do.

And to be fair, the presence of Diego in the Valley undermines almost everything I just said, because he can slaughter a huge chunk of the enemies (though he will die if you feed him too much enemies at once and has limited healing potions, and a lot of areas he will refuse to go) while you get the EXP. Though first time players might not even find him, and if they do, there's still at least the psychological effect that you are so weak at this point in the story that you need to be protected and hand-hold by someone else.

No! No! No! and No!

Piranha Bytes made the addon in a way so the player can stop playing the game after finishing the addon. Thats what they said back then 2004. Thats why they put all the new content in the game reachable in chapter 2 already.

You are not supposed to go the valley of mines at all. You can do it but its not that the developers want you to go there first. The addon was made for all the players who already played Gothic 2 vanilla. Thats why it is much more difficult then Gothic 2 vanilla.

If they wanted you to go to the Valley of Mines first they would have programed it that way. But they didnt. So you can chose freely. If you prefer to go there first then its fine. But if you go to the addon world first then its fine also.

Going to the addon world first doesnt ruin the game at all. I find the addon world way too easy if I go to the Valley of Mines first. You whole point is just wrong because even without the weapon and armor you get from the addon world its easy to completely kill every single monster in the Valley of Mines in chapter 2 already. I did so multiple times.

In addition if you go the Valley of Mines you can get the minecrawler armor in chapter 2 already which is even better than the guard armor from the addon world. In fact you can get that armor already in chapter 1 which makes your whole point about armor non-existent. The weapon you get scales with your level so its not so strong if you are low level and people who never played the game dont know how to make it stronger.

So the conclusion is its up to the players preference where to go first and there is no correct order. I think for first players its easier to go to the addon world first because the monsters there are beatable for them while they have to run from all orcs, wargs, fire lizards, golems and dragon snappers in the Valley of Mines. First players dont know where to go and the main quest in chapter 2 is to find people who are scattered and you dont know where they are. So you practically have to explore every cave there.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

In addition if you go the Valley of Mines you can get the minecrawler armor in chapter 2 .

Crawler armor is like easter egg more than anything - requiring super knowledge and exploration in advance (+ waste LP), beside it is totally underpowered for the effort.

Yes you CAN defeat all monsters in valley at any any point, same you CAN defeat all (actually same type) monsters in Khorinis in CH1. If you are that type of player and either very skillful/knowledgable or sink huge amount of real time into it - I am convinced most players learn natural barriers of monsters quickly and wiil not enjoy dying to orcs, wargs, skeletons, shadow beasts... and just run away if see those (already in chapter 1!) and just use same skill over whole game and than naturally go through Valley too evading what is stronger than them - the map y6ou get and monstres you see guide you very well (without need "explore every cave", though ofc knowledge of G1 has advantages)

As you can go to both areas in CH2, ofc it create unbalance for each other - but doing Valley only with its objectives is much much shorter and bring way fewer levels than other way around (hence the unbalance it bring to second is not so big than opposite way)

[[AK] GaroK]

Originally posted by Oneeyed:

Originally posted by GaroK:

Complete, hard disagree. This is not how the game is supposed to be played.

If you ever played Piranha Bytes game (X), you know the game first tries make you feel completely worthless before letting you actually wreak havoc.
I will repeat my point. In Chapter 2 VoM you are basically a ♥♥♥♥♥, underequipped postman in a literal warzone that has to carefully watch his steps, running from danger while only chasing away some pests on the way. This is (almost, explanation later), perfect and one of the most memorable moment in the Gothic series. It gives you a taste of what's to come while also letting you know it's too early to play a hero.

Doing Jarkendar first gives you Heavy Guard Armor from Gothic 1 (Not as strong but still very decent for the early chapter and badass looking), and the Claw of Beliar - literal god's weapon that requires no stats, can be actively improved, strucks the targets with damn lightning, even if the target blocks your attack. Besides the invincible dragons which are only killable after story progress, you can destroy everything on your way the first time you visit VoM. With some persistance, you can clear the whole siege around the castle.

The "From Zero to Hero" aspect is totally ruined, you are never zero, as you are already a hero the moment you first time arrive in there. What is there even to do when you proceed to Chapter 4? Only dragons, and maybe few snappers, wargs and one shadowbeast that respawn.


To be fair, I know the developers give you choice for a reason. Nobody can tell you how you want to play. Nothing is stopping you from breaking the game all you want. But the game and the story has a design that I think should at least be properly experienced the first time you play and apreciate what the developers tried to do.

And to be fair, the presence of Diego in the Valley undermines almost everything I just said, because he can slaughter a huge chunk of the enemies (though he will die if you feed him too much enemies at once and has limited healing potions, and a lot of areas he will refuse to go) while you get the EXP. Though first time players might not even find him, and if they do, there's still at least the psychological effect that you are so weak at this point in the story that you need to be protected and hand-hold by someone else.

No! No! No! and No!

Piranha Bytes made the addon in a way so the player can stop playing the game after finishing the addon. Thats what they said back then 2004. Thats why they put all the new content in the game reachable in chapter 2 already.

You are not supposed to go the valley of mines at all. You can do it but its not that the developers want you to go there first. The addon was made for all the players who already played Gothic 2 vanilla. Thats why it is much more difficult then Gothic 2 vanilla.

If they wanted you to go to the Valley of Mines first they would have programed it that way. But they didnt. So you can chose freely. If you prefer to go there first then its fine. But if you go to the addon world first then its fine also.

Going to the addon world first doesnt ruin the game at all. I find the addon world way too easy if I go to the Valley of Mines first. You whole point is just wrong because even without the weapon and armor you get from the addon world its easy to completely kill every single monster in the Valley of Mines in chapter 2 already. I did so multiple times.

In addition if you go the Valley of Mines you can get the minecrawler armor in chapter 2 already which is even better than the guard armor from the addon world. In fact you can get that armor already in chapter 1 which makes your whole point about armor non-existent. The weapon you get scales with your level so its not so strong if you are low level and people who never played the game dont know how to make it stronger.

So the conclusion is its up to the players preference where to go first and there is no correct order. I think for first players its easier to go to the addon world first because the monsters there are beatable for them while they have to run from all orcs, wargs, fire lizards, golems and dragon snappers in the Valley of Mines. First players dont know where to go and the main quest in chapter 2 is to find people who are scattered and you dont know where they are. So you practically have to explore every cave there.

I guess we just can't and will not agree on this.

[[AK] GaroK]

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

As you can go to both areas in CH2, ofc it create unbalance for each other - but doing Valley only with its objectives is much much shorter and bring way fewer levels than other way around (hence the unbalance it bring to second is not so big than opposite way)

And the theme of Jarkendar is much different from Valley of Mines, so even if you somehow are overpowered after CH2 VoM and go to Jarkendar, it doesn't matter as much as the other way around, since Jarkendar is pretty much about exploring an ancient culture, so nothing is taken away from the experience.
Meanwhile doing CH2 Jark --> VoM completely shatters one of the best moments in the series.

[GothChild]

This is just retarded, play however you like, don't let others gatekeep you from playing in your own way. If you want the easy way get 3-4 transformation scrolls and do valley of mines, you unluck chapter 3 with better gear for jharkendar OR you go through jharkendar and fight some decently powerful enemies. In the end it's your choice since the the end goal is simply the same regardless

[ez game ez life]

The game lets you decide freely. Enjoy this freedom.