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I think maybe in all these months, I saw ONE other player equip smoke grenades as a perk.
Generally speaking, you'll never see any player equip a grenade or pistol perk vs something that helps keep you alive (Displacement Field, MD-99 AutoInjector); lets you move faster (All-Terrain Boots, Cardio Accelerator); or improves Stratagem use (Stratagem Priority, Precision Call-In).
I did argue at one point they should add a grenade equipment slot, and have the grenade perks be available there. Then people would use them, I think. Maybe they feel it would imbalance things, but I don't feel like pistols/grenades as perks make any sense to use vs. the more useful perk options.
I did actually mess around on the easiest current Event mission last night fiddling with a couple of the pistol perks, and just confirmed they're basically pointless. I probably would've favored just adding one maybe dual-pistol main weapon, maybe with some fun upgrades on it -- if the idea was that some part of the player-base wanted to use pistols more often than as an emergency "I'm out of ammo" option or equipping when carrying the suitcase delivery item.
Here are some playlists for Grenade Perks that show them being used
Now let me highlight some specific cases out of those which show what I like most about them
Stun Grenades Perk helps keep you / team alive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmQEu0a_FA
Incendiary Grenades Perk as a road block:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjlC5LPN41o
Smoke Grenades Perk for stealth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTCa6pGZpT8
Here are some playlists for Pistol Perks that show them being used
With the Perk Pistols, I personally think of their specific utility in terms of how they compliment my Primary choice against the enemy faction being fought
Pyro really isn't good in any particular way except that you get more Pistol ammo with it than any other option. It is short range, low damage, tick damage doesn't last much, etc. You can still use it but I haven't discovered any way that it gives me any meaningful advantage as a loadout option. I think the following where we all tried to use only the Perk Pistols is best gameplay case for Pyro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOqS8dFRDLk
Singe pairs excellent along with weapons like RX-1 Rail Gun vs Bugs. Singe is great in general. The Scorcher is one of the most powerful Primary in the game and the Singe is something that gives you most of that for a Perk slot in your Pistol slot. Fair trade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_F_B9Z2xk
Gunslinger is just awesome all around, but I think pairs best with shorter range Primary weapon choices because of its key advantage of long range precision high damage shots. Easily my most used out of Perk Pistols and Grenades. I can't recommend just one out of the many in the playlist.
Yeah, and that's all fine and dandy, but like you said, you need to be pretty good with them to make them work effectively. However, why use them when I can use better options that require less skill and timing? I guarantee you I could have run a way better stealth mission than that guy with the smoke grenades with a cardio accelerator/all terrain boots, and nothing but a humblebee and disruptor beacons. Actually, I did. Just yesterday I ran a helldive mission using nothing but those and the Trident, and I didn't die once, and only raised like 3 alarms. But I just ran away and they lost me.
That guy barely used the incendiary grenades at all, I don't even know if they did anything, but we all know that the air dropped mines can flatten the Cyborg mech in less than 60 seconds, so he could've just used those and won it way faster, and took autoinjector or displacement field to prevent that one death he had and got a flawless run.
I will admit that was pretty good stun grenade use in that mission, but they also could've taken displacement field or something more survival oriented as well, and all took the avenger since it absolutely crushes bugs and slows them as well, along with some barbed wire or something to help out.
As for the pistols, I already stated several things in the Original post as to why some of them are good, but by no means flawless or even reccomended. To name a few major ones:
Singe kills you when used in close range, which is a big deal for a sidearm. It also has ammo issues, and has low damage considering it's mag size.
Pyro does very little damage and has crap range and the main faction they are good against most people just take avenger.
Gunslinger is alright, but I normally go to my pistol for a last ditch "I'm being swarmed and I'm out of ammo" type deal, and that is not at all what it is for.
Even this guy who reviews everything and is pretty knowledgable of the game thought the pistol pack wasn't worth buying AT ALL because it used up perk slots and all of them had massive drawbacks and not many advantages over some much better perks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsFeOXr4w5k
Edit: Oh lol I see one of your comments in the video. What are the odds. However, all the weapons you reccommend using the pistols with I have never seen ANYONE use, except the tanto, and that was like twice.
Simply don't need any of them.
You as the player get to decide how your overall loadout along with your Perk choice works for you for the upcoming mission. As with all the other vast variety of choices in the game for weapons and stratagems, the Perk choices do exactly that and provide more choices.
All I meant to share was that there is meaningful use to all of these with the exception in my case of the Pyro Perk Pistol. That being said, there are some others that like using the Pyro just fine. I can go on missions with the Pyro equipped, but I never switch to it for any practical need except sweaping Bug scouts or Grotesques so I don't waste Primary ammo (or would need to reload first) which are generally cases where the standard Pistol does just as well. The Singe, Gunslinger, Stun, Incendiary, and Smoke grenades do stuff the standard Pistol / Grenade doesn't so those to me are more purposeful choices.
And the Singe is a pocket Scorcher! What's not to love?
Oh, what's that? It can easily get me killed? Pffffff, whatever. Won't get me killed as fast as my teammates will get me killed! :-P
But I guess I can see the point that none of these items are as easy-to-use or accessible as those items that the player-community generally favors in most situations at high-level play.
Or more to the point, these perks likely won't be recommended in any min/max loadout.
Which is unfortunate, because it's really fun to pull a mission off using stuff outside of your comfort zone.
So I guess the real question is: do want to play for fun and challenge, or for maximum efficiency?
Btw, the Trident is a new weapon? I didn't know that, but I only got into the game 3 weeks ago.
So, was it added to the game recently? Has it been changed in any way since then?
Because I sure hope it gets some kind of balance update. It's way too good against patrols and I feel like it is too good of a general purpose weapon, to the point where I feel like I gimp myself whenever I don't bring it into a mission. But it is just so boring (and my aim will see no improvement using it, too).
#sorryfortheofftopicrambling
The thing is that most other perks are at least good in their own special way, or can be used in very situational circumstances.
Want to be tankier? Heavy armor. Want to move faster? Cardio accelerator. Want to not be affected by snow or water? All terrain boots. Want a get out of jail free card? Displacement field.
And all of these are unique perks that are completely unique in almost everyway. Why would I take a pistol perk? If I want a flame weapon, I can just take an actual flamethrower. If I want a good crowd clearing weapon, I can take a singed or suppresor. If I want long range devastation, I can take a camper or a railgun. And for the most part, they will blow the pistols out of the water in every single way.
On the other hand, if you want a displacement field effect or cardio accelerator, there is nothing else in the game that gives you anything similar to those. They are unique and good in their own special way. Pistols are just smaller and weaker versions of already existing weapons, most of which are already REALLY good.
I will go so far as to say that compared to other perks at higher levels, the pistols are detriments rather than boons. Hell, even if they had a separate pistol slot, I would seriously consider changing out the already decent base pistol with these ones. But, I might bring them along if I feel the situation demands it. The issue is that when it takes up a perk slot, I never feel that it's worth it, and judging by a lot of the other comments on this discussion, a lot of people feel the same way it seems. And everything I just said can also be applied to grenade perks.
Yeah it is, and it's freaking disgusting. I can clear out entire patrols at any range with 1 or 2 shots when it's fully upgraded. It's only downside is it's unpredictablitity at times with it's shots.
Want to be tankier? You can use SH-32 shield which doesn't prevent sprinting and never stops reducing damage or Heavy Armor Perk which just gives you more health.
Want to move faster? You can use LIFT-850 for speed going over stuff rather than around, or you can use vehicles like APC or Hammer which are faster than Cardio Accelerator giving you unlimited sprint speed. Also you can melee-dash repeated to get unlimited sprint speed equivalent without using up the perk slot.
Want to not be affected by snow or water? LIFT-850, Vehicles, Mech all options in addition to using up your perk slot.
Want a get out of jail free card? The SH-20 is the equipment equivalent of the Displacement Field Perk with a few differences in that it neuters Hounds and keeps you safe from Poison, Stun, and Confusion. The only mulligans the Displacement Field Perk gives you that SH-20 while active doesn't is getting crushed by a Hellpod or being too close while standing to a Nuke or exiting vehicle while going over cliff.
Any argument you have against the Perk Pistols and Grenades also apply to majority of other popular Perks. They are all choices that expand your loadout possibilities.
If you want something like Singe (pistol equivalent of Scorcher) + RX-1 Rail Gun plus EAT-17, now you can. If you want something like Gunslinger (pistol equivalent of Camper) + Short-Range Primary (SMGs, DF, Tanto), now you can. If you want Pyro (weak pistol equivalent of Incinerator) + Primary + Avenger, now you can.
Same for the Perk Grenades. They give you options you wouldn't have without them.
Here are some new gameplay I uploaded from yesterday using these Perks on Snow vs Cyborgs
Stun + Incendiary Grenades
(3 Star Hell Dive with multiple failable objectives)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX_KpKDQ54s
Singe + Incendiary Grenades
(3 Star Hell Dive with 0 deaths and multiple failable objectives)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX4FVkvC5Fs
It is fine if you are not able to use these because you refuse to get past whatever mental block you have that makes you think you need the other perks and can't give up the slot for more tactical / much stronger Perk grenades / pistols.
But you wrong to think these never get used or that they are not worth using for people that do learn to use and appreciate them.
I get that what you are asking is that you want to use these, but as equipment slot options and not Perk slot options, but you aren't the first and you won't be the last. In fact, long ago I had raised similar discussion thinking why not let these be equipment loadout choices? Got plenty of feedback highlighting how these Grenades / Pistols would be too OP and then standard Grenade / Pistol would become obsolete. Some people also raised issue of perception of pay to win if any of these Pistols become considered necessary like some players think All Terrain Boots are necessary for Snow planets or AT-47 is necessary for a Retaliatory Strike or whatever other crutch some players develop while having low expectations of themselves and their ability to have wider array of solutions for greater variety and fun of play.
Long story short, Arrowhead made them this way and once / if you use them sufficiently and well you will see they are worth using in the Perk slot capacity and there is balance involved in that choice.
3 Star Hell Dive with 1 failable objective and 1 death in the team (not mine)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a2ZpU1HKLE
Note that I have no issue going on Snow without All Terrain Boots Perk or LIFT-850 Jump Pack.
But eventually you'll get to the point where you're looking for new challenges because you and another buddy can breeze through helldives. Before then you may even want some variety! That's when you end up trying all the combos you skipped before.
Trying new things surely adds risks, but this is not a competitive game! Winning isn't everything. Having fun cooperatively is.
Good luck, helldiver!
Heavy armor is indeed widely considered one of the worst perks in the game for the very reason you stated, but it does have advantages, such as it never get's deactivated like the bubble shield, and covers your whole body unlike the SH-32. Also, you can never lose it like the shields.
The jetpack is very unwieldy and prevents prone, which is honestly better than the jump at certain times, and it also has limited fuel that when out, makes the pack worthless. Also, based off of tests I've done with my friends, it's about as fast as normal sprinting and slightly slower than a person with cardio accelerator.
As for terrain movement, most vehicles and all mechs are still slower than a guy with boots. (and the jetpack still has the weaknesses mentioned above) They are also way harder to manuver and are pretty bad unless you have someone with you to man the turret on top. (I do most Helldives solo since most of the friends I normally play with are not very good at those missions) And regardless, most vehicles in this game honestly seem like they're made out of paper. Unless it's the Bastion or upgraded Hav, most vehicles get destroyed from like 10 seconds or so of damage from most enemies except the weakest types, unless you kill them fast enough of course, which is your main defense.
I don't know what you're smoking, but the bubble shield is not and never will be the displacement field. Yes, they both prevent you from dying and the shield does a good job, but the bubble shield pops from like 3 hits from most weaker enemies, and 1 hit from the higher up enemies. And then it takes like 5-10 seconds to charge back up, even when fully upgraded.
You mean it grants me immunity to the three leading causes of death in this game? I swear to God friendly fire, hellpod screw-ups, and vehicles kill way more people in my games than the actual enemies. So you're pretty much telling me that "yeah all it's got over the shield is protection from the leading causes of death." Which sounds pretty good to me. Oh, and you can't lose it like you can the shield.
Yeah, I get that they didn't want to obsolete the base pistol and grenades, but they have honestly already obsoleted several items in the game with DLC's. Why use the flamer when you can use the avenger? Why use the basic mech when you have the Stomper? Why use pretty much any turret when you can use that broken-butt Anti-tank enplacement? Why use the basic grenades when you have the demolisher? Why use any weapon that requires ammo when you got a laser weapon for every situation under the sun? (Not even talking about the Trident)
They already have a lot of things that were made outdated by DLC packs, and honestly, the DLC pistols don't seem like the would obsolete the base pistol. Like I said, the base pistol is pretty kick ass as it is, it's only issue is ammo, which is the main issue with a lot of the DLC pistols as well. And same with grenades. (of which most grenade perks aren't even lethal like the base version)
Maybe my issue is that I value efficiency and speed over everything else, so I just go with what the best load out is and use that all the time. Which is also why I take the Trident and nothing but distractor beacons on solo helldives for the most part, but still, even for difficult missions with other players, I just don't think the DLC pistols are so much better than the upgraded base pistol to justify taking.
Yes, you are a specific breed of player that only experience approximately < 5% of the games potential for memorable fun missions. By your logic, if the game gave same XP or Influence or whatever drives you to play whether you completed a Dive in the Park or Hell Dive, you would play Dive in the Park over and over and over because it would complete within 3-4 minutes and Hell Dives would take longer because they have more objectives and higher risk of losing objective. It would be illogical to play a Hell Dive at that point because it wouldn't be efficient.
At some point you will bore of the repetitive grind of playing the same way or after reaching whatever arbitrary goal you have set for yourself as you continue your current singular way of playing pattern and move on to another game or break out of your current pattern and experience what that is worth.
I read some signs in you of being disgusted by the Trident being too OP or the AT-47's being too OP, and anything else you find in over-use or OP. Where it seems you haven't gone yet yourself is trying other things for yourself regardless of what you find others using instead of sticking with whatever you currently think are universally best loadout options based on popular use by those players by whose hands you experience the most deaths.
Sure the Trident / AT-47 (whatever you find best) do a ton of friendly fire / accidentals, but that is just poor use right? But whatever else you may have tried that didn't work well enough for you at first try or so has some downside compared to Trident or whatever you consider best and it wasn't your poor use that had you find it not best?
Helldivers is a skill based strategic real time action game steeped in game design that rewards / punishes good / bad cooperative play. If you can't see there isn't a best loadout for all scenarios for all time for all teams... well in my opinion that's your issue.
I use that specific loadout on solo helldives, which I do 95% of the time for samples. When I'm playing with my friends on level 8 missions or so, I do mix it up a bit and we try to get a role thing going on. And yeah it's fun, but if we were being serious about playing, it is by no means the best or recommended option to play.
And sadly, there ARE "best" weapons in a way.
Illuminates: Take a Trident or similar laser weapon. It flattens all of them, does really well against their shields, and they have no heavily armored units to resist the small arms fire.
Bugs: Avenger. It is absolutely AMAZING at killing the hordes they send at you and can even kill their tanks in 10 seconds or less. Not to mention that it slows and bypasses their otherwise strong armor.
Cyborgs: Take a Suppresor or something similar (I honestly think the Trident or Arc shotgun work really well against them as well) and your choice of anti tank weapons, maybe a Eat-17. Or better yet, just outrun the tanks. They're slow AF. I will admit though that because of their actual tanks they are probably the hardest faction.
And you might say that it might get boring using these weapons, and why would I use them. The reason is because of dominant strategy. When a game gives you a ultimate method to kill things in a game, you're almost always going to use it. (credit to JonTron for simplifying it)
Like you said, this game is a strategic, hardcore, coop reliant game that punishes or rewards bad team play or good team play respectively. And that sounds like the type of game you really don't want to goof around in or use anything other than the best when you're actually being serious.
I like the game a lot, these are just some glaring issues that I think they need to deal with. Maybe have it so that shields are resistant to lasers, or have it so that small arms fire is really only good on the masses of weaker enemies, or better yet, add more unit variety and differences. The illuminates have like 3 enemies that are like other, similar versions but stronger (Tripod and strider, illusionists and council members, and appretices and outcasts to a lesser extent.) and same with the bugs. (Warrior, Elite, and Brood commander are literally the same damn enemy with different resistances, and same with the tanks and behemoths, except one has a weak spot.) The cyborgs are the only ones that don't really have this issue, but they come really damn close with the hulk and warlord, and berserkers and butchers.
Anyway, this topic isn't a review of the game, it's about pistols and grenades, and I thought I brought up some legitament things in my last post that you ignored in favor of dissing my style of game play when I solo, such as the fact that many things have already gone obsolete due to many DLC additions and that the other perks do indeed have some differences with everything else in the game, even if they are somewhat minor, unlike the pistols Flam, Singed, and Gunslinger which are literally copy-pastes of the flamethrower, scorcher, and camper respectively, albeit weaker.
You are full of contradiction when you say the Perk Pistols would not make the Default Pistol obsolete when you also believe that DLC have made many other things obsolete (which I don't agree with, in case it isn't clear).
You say whatever suits your current conclusion without realizing all the contradiction in how you view / value said things. Do keep in mind I shared other people opinion / concern I received when long time ago I asked what would be harm if Grenades / Pistols were Equipment options vs Perk options. It is not my opinion that Default Pistol or Default Grenade would become obsolete (even if they become less popular).
Here is another example where within 1 sentence difference, you accept differentiators for perks as compared to alternatives (even minor) and then fail to apply the same view / value towards Pistols and their Primary / Support counterparts.
Your copy-paste statement is full of ignorance. The Gunslinger for instance is far stronger than Camper and has rapid rate of fire and comes with Laser Sight. The Singe has longer range and no incendiary effect. The Pyro I have talked about already. Lastly, they all take up Pistol slot, and like Perks can't be lost during mission.
Your default Pistol cannot take out 4 Cyborg Hell Dive scouts before they alarm (clip runs out before all 4 are dead). The Singe and Gunslinger both can. You wouldn't really feel a need to have these with you if you are using something like Trident all the time, except maybe during a carry objective, but as you have stated you are well accustomed to using Distractor Beacon or just walking away instead of engaging (which is smart in my view).
So the level of ignorance in your "legitament" things is why I don't respond back to any of your specific rebuttals. To me it just says you just haven't played the game enough, certainly not broadly enough, so it doesn't do anyone any good for me to call you out on those things.
...
All I aimed to do was have you re-evaluate your conclusions in light of demonstrated evidence that using the Perk Pistols and Perk Grenades per your original post of "does anyone use these?" are used, have been in use for long time, and are very viable options.
I am sorry to have dissed your style. I was merely concluding (per my own value / view not necessarily applicable to you) that if you play the same limited way as you continue to describe (solo or otherwise), you will get bored and tire of the game, and that is fine, but you will not have experienced everything else you could if you allow yourself to play with wider range of options.
I did mean to knock on arbitrarily valuing efficiency (comparing Dive in Park to Hell Dive if XP gain the same), but not in a way to insult but rather to possibly have you re-evaluate why are you spending your free time playing to be efficient at something repetitive? I probably didn't go about it in a good way, so sorry on that as well.