Making Legionnaires Vulnerable to Arc Weapons Damage?

[Krag824]

Lately, I've been playing a lot on the higher difficulties and I must admit that I love the new additions to the game. However, there is one thing that really irks me the wrong way, which is the fact that there is no variety of ways to dispose of the new Legionnaire unit, especially if we exclude DLC weapons. In short, I think it would be great if arc weapons could damage them. I see no reaso why they shouldn't, as every other type of cyborg except blocking Hulks, IFVs and the Siegemech is affected by them.

In the rest of this thread, I will give a bit of a background on the different ways I tried to approach Legionnaires in order to justify my opinion with some in-game evidence.

How to Kill a Legionnaire

I am aware that stratagems are a vital part of gameplay in HELLDIVERS, however I would like to point out the fact that if we look at how to approach Legionnaires without them, there is only one way to reliably kill them - using Scorcher. The only other weapons that come close to the effectiveness of Scorcher are Supressor and Plasma Pistol, however both of those will always leave one Legionnire alive due to the lack of incendiary rounds. Even then, all of those weapons are DLC guns. No base game gun affects Legionnaires, unless they are hit from the back, which is real hard to perform on all four members of the patroll without sounding the alarm. I find it quite unfair that only DLC owners are able to tackle Legionnaires and therefore don't need to bother with bringing stratagems just to fight a patrol.

If we include stratagems, which is the way we should be looking at the game, things also aren't that pretty. There are two main ways one can approach Legionnaires, either by using equipment or offensive stratagems. I will start by talking about offensive stratagems, as it is quite simple, it's not worth the time and effort of using them, unless you use Static Field Conductors, which are mostly suited for defence. Legionnaires move too fast for a player to be able to aim their stratagems right and considering how prone to error throwing is, I would only use them to deal with bigger enemies and IFVs. As for equipment, there is very little variety of choice. I tried all weapons and it would seem that very few are actually capable of killing legionnaires before they sound the alarm. As for killing them in general, there is a few choices and there are some interesting things I've noticed.

Firstly, Recoilless Rifle, EAT-17 and Anti-Tank Emplacement are garbage against Legionnaires. They are not worth using at all, save them for IFVs and Warlords. Secondly, Incinerator and Avenger can kill Legionnaires reliably, but due to their range, they are less than preferable, unless you just love to wash Warlords wih toxins before they smash you into the ground. Rumbler is quite interesting... I wouldn't recommend it for clearing out Legionnaires. On average, they take 2 Rumbler salvos before they die, and ammunition is not free. Moreover, this weapon can be terrible against fast moving targets. That leaves us with 2 weapons that are better at killing Legionnaires, although they are nowhere near as good as Scorcher. It takes about 3 commando shots to kill a Legionnaire patroll and about the same amount of grenades for Obliterator. When we consider the ammunition and reloads for both weapons, Obliterator is a clear winner, combined with the grenade launcher's ability to damage and kill Hulks and Warlords. You will need to use stratagems to get rid of IFVs though.

Conclusion

All that leads to one simple conclusion - Legionnaires are tough. It's good that they are tough. I like that they are tough. What I don't like is the fact that my freedom of approach when fighting them is so limited and almost entierly relient on stratagems if I refuse to use Scorcher. Even if it's just arc weapons that would also be good against them, it's better than just cutting out non-DLC owners from being able to kill Legionnaires with their primary weapons. To be honest, I would also love to see the railgun be capable of penetrating Legionnaire shields. That's just my opinion though and I would love to see what others think about it.

Edit1: After finishing writing this suggestion, I realised that I forgot to test Demolisher charges. They turn out to be one of the more effective weapons against Legionnaires, however it takes an average of 2 chrges to kill a patrol. Considering the long cooldown of this stratagem and previously mentioned fact that accurate throwing is difficult, they are not a reliable or consistent method of killing them.

Edit2: I am quite ashamed that I haven't noticed this before, but Legionnaires turn around if you come too close to them, revealing their backs to you. It's still not ideal, as they will sound the alarm first, making Cyborgs the only faction that requires very specific, preferably DLC equipment to attmept stealth at difficulties 13+. As for the reason why I haven't noticed this behaviour in Legionnaires before, it's because I like to keep enemies at distance. Now I understand that making Legionnaires a unit best countered by proximity was a design choice and it was my fault for approaching them wrong, however I still don't see a reason why arc weapons shouldn't damage them at all.

[pyr0kid]

i like this idea, would make arc weapons a good bit more useful

[lyravega]

Blocking Hulks take no damage from Arc weapons, as Arc weapons always hit the front of an enemy as far as I know. As to disabling the new scouts, Obliterator is somewhat interesting.

To be honest, as long as Arc weapons have that crawling speed attached to them while you are charging, many will find them undesirable. Three things may help them in that regard. First one is, increasing the speed (co-efficient) while charging. Second one is adding a mini-stun effect. Third one is having the charge-up mechanic a passive one, so the weapon builds-up charge on its own, and you just tap and release it. Etc... etc...

About the reason, I think it's somewhat hardcoded; as soon as the shield dudes start blocking, I think their frontal armor gets replaced by the shield armor. They can perhaps make it ignore all armor, but have it deal only anti-personnel damage (I think that's a damage type in the game) so it won't be blowing up IFVs and stuff. And yeah, it should work... if the shield is conductive :P

[Krag824]

Originally posted by lyravega:

Blocking Hulks take no damage from Arc weapons, as Arc weapons always hit the front of an enemy as far as I know. As to disabling the new scouts, Obliterator is somewhat interesting.

To be honest, as long as Arc weapons have that crawling speed attached to them while you are charging, many will find them undesirable. Three things may help them in that regard. First one is, increasing the speed (co-efficient) while charging. Second one is adding a mini-stun effect. Third one is having the charge-up mechanic a passive one, so the weapon builds-up charge on its own, and you just tap and release it. Etc... etc...

About the reason, I think it's somewhat hardcoded; as soon as the shield dudes start blocking, I think their frontal armor gets replaced by the shield armor. They can perhaps make it ignore all armor, but have it deal only anti-personnel damage (I think that's a damage type in the game) so it won't be blowing up IFVs and stuff. And yeah, it should work... if the shield is conductive :P

Just as a little side note, blocking Hulks can be damaged by the Arc Thrower as long as they are not the first enemy to get zapped by it. This is not the case with Legionnaires and I assume it's because their front armor is fixed, but Hulk's front armor changes depending on their stance. I've killed more than one blocking Hulk using the Arc Thrower, so I am quite sure that I'm correct.

As for arc weapons themselves, they are not that bad. Certainly suited better for defence than offence, but they are one of the most effective wave clearers in the game and are amazing at killing bug and 12- difficulty cyborg patrolls in one shot. Moreover, they can't overheat and free up the stratagem slot usually needed for ammo. I consider them a high risk, high reward kind of weapons.

[lyravega]

Originally posted by Krag824:

snip

Ah very interesting that zaps can still damage Hulks. To be honest, as you might have expected, I gave up on Arc weapons altogether as I prefer mobility over pretty much anything.

I'm still trying Obliterator versus the Legions. but it has wildly varying degrees of success. Wish they acted like Hulks instead of having the armor applied to front at all times. But maybe a dev. thought about it and said "♥♥♥ it", making Arc vs Legions. somewhat useless.

[Krag824]

Originally posted by lyravega:

Originally posted by Krag824:

snip

Ah very interesting that zaps can still damage Hulks. To be honest, as you might have expected, I gave up on Arc weapons altogether as I prefer mobility over pretty much anything.

I'm still trying Obliterator versus the Legions. but it has wildly varying degrees of success. Wish they acted like Hulks instead of having the armor applied to front at all times. But maybe a dev. thought about it and said "♥♥♥ it", making Arc vs Legions. somewhat useless.

Yeah, you gotta aim the Obliterator right behind the Legionnaires for best results, which is hard because of the shield's hitbox. Otherwise you will need to wait for the fire damage to do the job, which is not that different from what Scorcher does. The advantage of Scorcher is the simple fact that it's precise and Obliterator is hard to aim right.

[Lein]

Yeah, I found it pretty strange too when I first found out that arc weapons don't work against them, but I agree that they should. I don't even use arc weapons, and I always play with alarms anyway, but it still would be nice to have a niche area in the game where arc weapons really get to shine for those that do enjoy them.

[cusman]

I agree that lightning should strike down Legionnaires.

I think it is a bug that made it past the QA before A New Hell released because even the devs and testers weren't using Arc weapons against Cyborgs.

Hopefully something that will get remedied in whatever patch they are able to do next.

[T-Bone Biggins]

Legionnaires are a direct response to people like me talking about solo'ing level 12 planets all the time. The game and all equipment was made with the intent of level 12 being the real deal and the end of it. The new difficulties are not fair, they are not balanced, they are a direct response to bored veterans who still love the game but got tired of walking through it to the point of using underpowered funny-kit for challenge.

Cyborgs were always the hardest enemy in this game. The new patrols just hammer that fact home that now on a cyborg world you are not going to be able to stealth your entire mission without distractor beacons, making that the new OP strat.

EDIT: Forgot to say the new 13+ difficulty on cyborg planets almost always end up being a constant retreating firefight which does bring a new feel to the game. Not sure how the devs will respond as far as patches and whatnot but do not expect anything else. Before Liberty Day they talked several times about how Helldivers won't be updated anymore so I consider the new difficulties and metal-storm machine gun a great gift to the community.

[Fallaner, the Writer Eternal]

While the Railgun isn't really a solo weapon, is it's bullet unable to penetrate the shield?

(I have yet to do a Cyborg 13 mission, so i'm curious, since my first reaction would be try to utilize the piercing capability of the Railgun)

[Krag824]

Originally posted by Fallaner:

While the Railgun isn't really a solo weapon, is it's bullet unable to penetrate the shield?

(I have yet to do a Cyborg 13 mission, so i'm curious, since my first reaction would be try to utilize the piercing capability of the Railgun)

I'm afraid the shields stop the railgun. I tried it and it only stuns them.

[Krag824]

Originally posted by T-Bone Biggins:

Legionnaires are a direct response to people like me talking about solo'ing level 12 planets all the time. The game and all equipment was made with the intent of level 12 being the real deal and the end of it. The new difficulties are not fair, they are not balanced, they are a direct response to bored veterans who still love the game but got tired of walking through it to the point of using underpowered funny-kit for challenge.

Cyborgs were always the hardest enemy in this game. The new patrols just hammer that fact home that now on a cyborg world you are not going to be able to stealth your entire mission without distractor beacons, making that the new OP strat.

EDIT: Forgot to say the new 13+ difficulty on cyborg planets almost always end up being a constant retreating firefight which does bring a new feel to the game. Not sure how the devs will respond as far as patches and whatnot but do not expect anything else. Before Liberty Day they talked several times about how Helldivers won't be updated anymore so I consider the new difficulties and metal-storm machine gun a great gift to the community.

That doesn't justify having a whole category of weapons unable to deal any damage to them whatsoever. Because arc weapons always hit the front of the enemy, even if you shoot at their backs, they are the only weapons in the game that do not affect Legionnaires, which is just not a good thing and a possible oversight rather than an intended feature. It's not like arc weapons are OP.

[Krag824]

@lyravega
It would seem you were right about the arc weapons not damaging shielded Hulks. It would seem that the Hulks lose their front armor value a bit before the animation of putting the shield away starts, that's why it looks like they are getting hit while blocking. It was my mistake and sorry for misinforming anyone.

[cusman]

Regarding Legionnaires, today I was able to verify that unlike the Arc Shotgun and Arc Thrower, the Tesla Tower doesn't fail to zap the life out of them.

You can see this during the Activate and Defend Launchpad objective in the following full mission gameplay video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BHSOR5HiA

[Krag824]

Originally posted by cusman:

Regarding Legionnaires, today I was able to verify that unlike the Arc Shotgun and Arc Thrower, the Tesla Tower doesn't fail to zap the life out of them.

You can see this during the Activate and Defend Launchpad objective in the following full mission gameplay video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BHSOR5HiA

After talking a bit about it on HD Discord, it would seem that it's purely because of Tesla Tower's damage of 1200. The shield has an armor range of 1000 to 4000, what means that only weapons that deal over 1000 damage or have massive armor penetration can deal with them. Arc weapons don't come close to those values. The Legionnaire's shield's armor would need to be reduced to a minimum of 300 (warlord's minimum armor) for high power weapons to deal any significant damage to them, but it might make the unit too weak.

[Odraco6]

I admit, if arc weapons could damage the legionares, it would make arc weapons more useful and maybe more fun to use.