Few words about... Helicopters

[Jedi]

Welcome in my series of topics "Few words about..." I would like to touch topics related to game mechanics and discuss good and bad sides of those while also proposing improvements. Please take part in discussion providing observations and arguments.

First thing I would like to mention is that I really enjoy Helicopters after Squad V2.0, In my humble opinion, well done devs! 👍. Those are things like:

1. Learning curve is fantastic because helis are quite hard to learn and master which force you keep practicing and make it really interesting.

2. Inertia of Helicopters is exceptionally noticeable and for such a big machines it at least have "realistic" feeling.

3. It's fantastic addition to this kind of game especially gives increadable mobility on bigger maps.

4. Controls of Helicopters are done quite well especially in terms of as called "Collective". I was thinking about it for a long time and there is no better solution to make it accessable for mouse and keyboard players. It would require deeper and better in game tuturial to explain how it works.

5. New damage model is much better than previous one and I believe helicopters should be even more fragile.

I'm not the pilot and I never played any simulator and also never used any Joystick or controller. I believe that flying model could be slightly improved in co-operation with proffessional pilots. But me personally I really cannot provide any details about model. I simply enojy flying after hours spend in game.

What I would like to see improved with helicopters.

1. Side guns are too weak. Chopper have literally 0 possibilities of defending itself.

2. Damage model. I know it will be improved but with stronger side guns, chopper could be even more fragile.

3. Possibility to teach pilots - This one is interesting I believe. You can join 2 man to Helicopter Squad. There are Lead Pilot and Pilot. Lead Pilot can toggle between him and normal pilot who flies helicopter as there are 2 pilot seats. With this asset you can show people how to fly, save the chopper when ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan or enjoy helicopters and shear it 2 persons except one. Tell me what you think.

4. Attack helicopters would be fantastic addition to the game giving new opportunities for battles, bigger maps creation. I was thinking about how to optimize attack helicopters and I already have few ideas.

4a. There are obviously gunner and pilot. Gunner can use (minigun that can be aimed, rockets that can be also aimed to some limited point, wire controlled rockets same as TOW or KORNET, that require chopper to hover or move slower.

4b. Attack helicopters would be of course much more maneuverable better acceleration which would allow them to hover in the air and start moving faster than transport helicopter.

Attack helicopter, this is much bigger topic to discuss. I know that's a lot I wrote but please try to process and share your thoughts/ideas.

[Geebus]

One of the things that has always put me off with helicopters is that the pilot is invulnerable. Piggybacking off the pilot and copilot idea, I think it might be a good idea to make it so that the pilot could be shot out of his own chopper. This might encourage the use of the copilot outside of those rare circumstances where someone might be helping a buddy learn. This might also fit in with making the choppers more vulnerable.

As to uparming the helicopers, while I don't think that it is necessary, I wouldn't mind it. I believe that I saw recently in a changlog that there was testing to put a Kord in the Mi-8 and Mi-17. Certainly the US could be upgunned to a .50 as well.

[Jedi]

Originally posted by Geebus:

One of the things that has always put me off with helicopters is that the pilot is invulnerable.

Very good point. I forget about it and when you mentioned I started thinking that yes, pilot is like in the armoured vehicle. I mean probably there is some kind of bulletproof glass used in army helicopters, but it should be penetrable by higher callibers.

Originally posted by Geebus:

As to uparming the helicopers, while I don't think that it is necessary, I wouldn't mind it. I believe that I saw recently in a changlog that there was testing to put a Kord in the Mi-8 and Mi-17. Certainly the US could be upgunned to a .50 as well.

Yep I remember they mentioned that, it's worth to see how it will work.

[Jedi]

I saw those movies before but actually watched them yesterday.

Attack choppers were there already with weaponry identical to what I proposed.

Attack helicopters would probably have to be adjusted to new V2.0 flying model and some ideas about time to spawn, ticket cost etc. made.

Enjoy watching the videos and feel that hype:

https://youtu.be/wsNufgw6BJI

https://youtu.be/W_7B7oy7Zj0

https://youtu.be/41JCqekRr5A

[Jedi]

Originally posted by Aegmar:

Im not sure if Attack Helicopter wouldn't be overkill in Squad, because the maps are not that big tbh and the viewing distance in the Unreal Engine / Squad is very far..., when done realistically (thermals, up to 16 laser guided ATGMS, armored) those could make the use of any other vehicles totally futile and lead to them being left behind at main, not used at all anymore.

Most other games that worked with Attack Helos had drastically shortened view distance (atifical fog), forcing those helis to get very close to see anything, but even in those games (like BF3 and even PR) AH crews ended up hovering at the map ceiling or in some proteced corner and just spamming 30mm aimed via map markers on the points with confirmed enemys to farm kills.

One change i would like to see for the current Helicopters is the removal of their ability to place radios to slow down the game of HAB spam a bit - they can still transport troops and supply existing fobs and even stay as (unrealistically) durable.

One of the Dev's slipped they want to add Attack Helos in principle (albeit its not yet being worked on), but im worried if they can make them fit well into the game without having every round resolving purely around the relative skill of the AH crews...

First thing I would like to mention that for me the true Squad 50 vs 50 with all the assets works on the big maps like outskirts, skoro, yevhirovka?, Gorodok etc. Therefore personally I would like to see more of those.

Some smaller only infantry maps are also fine but I prefer those huge battles.

There could be even layers on huge flat maps with mostly the helicopters.

There are many things that can be done to avoid overpowered attack helicopters:

1. They can test and set up any limit of weaponry in helicopter they want, forcing more frequent resupply at base.

2. When shooting ATGM you need to stay still in the air. This makes you liable for TOW, KORNER, tanks, other vehicles.

3. Even Insurgency faction got scope to AA gun which is now true beast against choppers.

4. New dmg model can and in my opinion should make helis more fragile. This will force helicopters to move more instead of hovering and blasting.

5. If you watch those old 2 years videos more carefully you will notice that only ATGM is danger at long range. Using anything else force you get closer, therefore more liable for HATs and LATs + plenty of other threats.

6. Attack helicopters of course would cost 15 tickets like a tank or even more, with quite long respawn time.

7. Your main goal as attack helicopters would be:

a) fighting with other heli and attack tanks, vehicles.

b) defending transport helis.

There is small room for harassing infantry that mostly play thier own game on the ground.

In my opinion there no even need to add AA guns with all the aveliable assets. Still could be considered as a counter for attack helicopters.

Important to mention is adding attack helicopters would force safer and more steady play style that many people ask for. You would be somehow forced to fortify points, build tows, machine guns, AA guns.

I think I gave many of valuable points and imagine how many are still missing.

At the end of the day you also need to know how to fly (V2.0 require some higher skill) and how to coordinate with the gunner. This is the main reason why it's not the much higher level of power like e.g. tank. Maybe higher level of fun for people like me 😁.

[Collateral damage]

To avoid overquoting, I'll say that I agree with points I didn't quote.

Originally posted by Jedi:

2. Inertia of Helicopters is exceptionally noticeable and for such a big machines it at least have "realistic" feeling.

I think it's exactly opposite. It is some kind of magic I don't understand. Helis in squad feel like planes that fight extreme air resistance, like they are underwater. My main complaint is that inertia magically disappears at slow speeds which makes landing weird. It's not even hard, it's stupid. It encourages you to drop the machine on the ground at high speed, and if you miss the landing site by like 3 meters, you get stuck in the air and waste a lot of time trying to push it forward. It's also counter intuitive that by maintaining pitch you lose velocity instead of keeping it. It's kinda ok at high speeds, but very clunky at slow speeds.

Originally posted by Jedi:

Controls of Helicopters are done quite well especially in terms of as called "Collective"

My complaint is more about model than controls. Effective collective should change relative to altitude. At low altitude it should be stronger, and at high altitude it should be weaker. I do not observe that behavior in squad at all. You can hover at any altitude at 45% collective. Instead, the amount of collective that allows you to hover at 0.5 m should make you go down at higher altitudes, and as effective force grows, it should slow the inertia down. If collective and inertia problems are fixed, it will make landing so much smoother. Currently it's dumbed down but it doesn't make it easier, it just makes it uncomfortable, especially if you play other games as well.

Originally posted by Jedi:

Side guns are too weak. Chopper have literally 0 possibilities of defending itself.

They are mostly there to defend against other choppers. Hovering makes you an easy target, and efficiently destroying other vehicles or even hunting players at high velocity should not be in this gmae.

Originally posted by Jedi:

Attack helicopters would be fantastic addition to the game

Strongly disagree. Attack helicopters do not belong in Squad as vehicles. They are assets on a different level than units engaging. If they were added, they would be a strategic support, asset for a commander. Which would make them no different from air support that's already in the game.
Imagine commander artillery that you can launch with pinpoint accuracy and also see the results immediately on your screen and react accordingly to moving targets. That's what attack helicopters can do.

[Collateral damage]

Originally posted by Aegmar:

One of the Dev's slipped they want to add Attack Helos in principle (albeit its not yet being worked on), but im worried if they can make them fit well into the game without having every round resolving purely around the relative skill of the AH crews...

I think it might be a vehicle for marine corps. I don't think they will add something as devastating as Apache or Viper, but utility helicopters like UH-1Y or armed UH-60M could work with some limitations. I mean, UH-60M is already in the game and it can be armed with missiles, it's just doesn't fit well withing the game. But if it's one specific faction in specific scenarios, it could work.

[Jedi]

Originally posted by Sewtkin:

I think it's exactly opposite. It is some kind of magic I don't understand. Helis in squad feel like planes that fight extreme air resistance, like they are underwater. My main complaint is that inertia magically disappears at slow speeds which makes landing weird. It's not even hard, it's stupid. It encourages you to drop the machine on the ground at high speed, and if you miss the landing site by like 3 meters, you get stuck in the air and waste a lot of time trying to push it forward. It's also counter intuitive that by maintaining pitch you lose velocity instead of keeping it. It's kinda ok at high speeds, but very clunky at slow speeds.

I can agree with that but what I would say is that before V2 flying model was absolutely strange and unrealistic. I tried to watch some of the ARMA 3 helicopter videos which seems to be role model for this kind of games and helicopters in this game seems to have less inertia than in Squad.

The only thing is that for me new model is better than previous one and I completely cannot say whether it is realistic or not, feels more realistic than previous one. I never played any simulator.

Originally posted by Sewtkin:

My complaint is more about model than controls. Effective collective should change relative to altitude. At low altitude it should be stronger, and at high altitude it should be weaker. I do not observe that behavior in squad at all. You can hover at any altitude at 45% collective. Instead, the amount of collective that allows you to hover at 0.5 m should make you go down at higher altitudes, and as effective force grows, it should slow the inertia down. If collective and inertia problems are fixed, it will make landing so much smoother. Currently it's dumbed down but it doesn't make it easier, it just makes it uncomfortable, especially if you play other games as well.

Again IDK how helicopter operates. From the other hand I did some research and I know that the throttle to operate collective contains:

1. Angle of the main rotor blades.
2. Speed of engine which can be operated manually and automatically (I think mostly automatically).

Speed of engine is also important because of air density.

They had to simplify it somehow to make it playable. I think it is done well, should be tweaked a bit as I believe especially Blackhawk reacts very sluggish to collective.

Originally posted by Sewtkin:

They are mostly there to defend against other choppers. Hovering makes you an easy target, and efficiently destroying other vehicles or even hunting players at high velocity should not be in this gmae.

Every time you hover makes you an easy target to get. I read some about Appaches were shotted down easily by RPG's IRL :). You cannot shot even 50 super precisely with high speed, you have to slow down.

Yesterday I tried to kill blackhawk on the ground so we were hovering and shooting MG2. It took 6 mags to kill it :D.

If you play Squad you surely know that side guns are absolutely useless and I think this should be changed. It can't be that you are shooting infantry units and they are absolutely not scared of your fire therfore they can take you down easily. Chopper can be taken down easily when hover by LAT, HAT.

Fortunately devs in latest patch notes said they are going to test e.g. Korg mounted as a side gun.

Originally posted by Sewtkin:

Strongly disagree. Attack helicopters do not belong in Squad as vehicles. They are assets on a different level than units engaging. If they were added, they would be a strategic support, asset for a commander. Which would make them no different from air support that's already in the game.
Imagine commander artillery that you can launch with pinpoint accuracy and also see the results immediately on your screen and react accordingly to moving targets. That's what attack helicopters can do.

I don't understand why attack helicopters do not belong to Squad as a successor of Project Reality ?:D

I described in details how e.g. attack helicopters could be balanced. It's not only shooting to the point.

So it's hard for me to imagine comparision with pinpoint artillary if there are TOWs, KORNETS, enemy Helicopters, Tanks, AA guns, LATs, HATs. I think what was done in the videos I presented in one of previous post was very well made in terms of weaponry optimization.

This was 2 years ago and flying model was different and Helicopters before V2 were too armoured.

This would slow down the game and force ground units to build more fortifications, TOW/KORNET, MG's maybe AA guns. Attack helicopters would stand a real threat that forcing awareness, therfore slow down the whole match.

[firemane (Lex)]

Helos really need decent Hotas support. All the vehicles need track IR or other headtracking support.

[Maki Nishikino]

Originally posted by firemane (Lex):

Helos really need decent Hotas support. All the vehicles need track IR or other headtracking support.

I've tried them on the range once, they're a cakewalk when you have such peripherals.

[Jedi]

I think people like this idea. I know it's an eye catch effect, but as I pilot imagining this makes me feel, excited 😃.

https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/my4cwy/attack_heli_mod/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[Timmeh]

Sounds good.
Maybe full attack helicopters would be too much, but at least some light scout helos or blackhawks with miniguns are feasible.
Also the aiming angle of gunners seems rather limited in some cases... that could be improved.

What I think helos need the most right now, is the ability to bandage yourself in a passenger or gunner seat.

[chair65]

[/quote]

Originally posted by Jedi:

2. Inertia of Helicopters is exceptionally noticeable and for such a big machines it at least have "realistic" feeling.

I think it's exactly opposite. It is some kind of magic I don't understand. Helis in squad feel like planes that fight extreme air resistance, like they are underwater. My main complaint is that inertia magically disappears at slow speeds which makes landing weird. It's not even hard, it's stupid. It encourages you to drop the machine on the ground at high speed, and if you miss the landing site by like 3 meters, you get stuck in the air and waste a lot of time trying to push it forward. It's also counter intuitive that by maintaining pitch you lose velocity instead of keeping it. It's kinda ok at high speeds, but very clunky at slow speeds.

Originally posted by Jedi:

Controls of Helicopters are done quite well especially in terms of as called "Collective"

My complaint is more about model than controls. Effective collective should change relative to altitude. At low altitude it should be stronger, and at high altitude it should be weaker. I do not observe that behavior in squad at all. You can hover at any altitude at 45% collective. Instead, the amount of collective that allows you to hover at 0.5 m should make you go down at higher altitudes, and as effective force grows, it should slow the inertia down. If collective and inertia problems are fixed, it will make landing so much smoother. Currently it's dumbed down but it doesn't make it easier, it just makes it uncomfortable, especially if you play other games as well.
[/quote]

Ditto this. I've been trying to get into this game again, and I mostly pilot aerial vehicles in ArmA 3 so naturally I'm interested in the helicopters. Every once in a while I reinstall this game, go the helicopter training, and uninstall again after seeing how awful the flight model is.

Darn, messed up the quotes.

[Jedi]

Originally posted by chair65:

Ditto this. I've been trying to get into this game again, and I mostly pilot aerial vehicles in ArmA 3 so naturally I'm interested in the helicopters. Every once in a while I reinstall this game, go the helicopter training, and uninstall again after seeing how awful the flight model is.

Darn, messed up the quotes.

Could you please explain me in detail what is wrong and should be changed as I simply dunno. Never played ARMA 3 and never flight the helicopter so I can't say much how it should "act" in the air.

[chair65]

Originally posted by Jedi:

Originally posted by chair65:

Ditto this. I've been trying to get into this game again, and I mostly pilot aerial vehicles in ArmA 3 so naturally I'm interested in the helicopters. Every once in a while I reinstall this game, go the helicopter training, and uninstall again after seeing how awful the flight model is.

Darn, messed up the quotes.

Could you please explain me in detail what is wrong and should be changed as I simply dunno. Never played ARMA 3 and never flight the helicopter so I can't say much how it should "act" in the air.

I don't know how to explain it, it just feels wrong. Try comparing these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-67ZKdiyD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2tP12_Xvcw

[Casual Sun]

You don't want realistic helicopters. You want helicopters that meet an approximation between being smooth to fly and operating in a good way for the game. I think RS2 has a really good flight model, and it is pretty cartoony. If squad was slightly less forgiving than that, it would be good.